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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 27, 2005 12:01:47 GMT -5
Thank you, Jenn, you rock!
I also love the Dies Gaudii site, but for some reason, links to it seem to be blocked on this site. It contains EXCELLENT information, but with a less-than-convenient layout. This theory of "good layout=good content" is definitely a BIG problem - especially when there are some sites with great layouts that are just FULL of wrong information, wrong names, etc.
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Post by sailorpluto7 on Jun 27, 2005 17:11:34 GMT -5
I know this isn't related to the topic in this thread, but I have to say it. jenn, I love the layout of your site! I love the way Haruka and Michiru's hands pop out overtop of the updates and the site map! It's so creative and unique!
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 28, 2005 2:35:02 GMT -5
Yes, well, I'm sure, as you've stated before, that both dubbies and subbies use 'Ptilol'. You claimed these sites to be 'very good' and 'reliable'. How reliable does it get when a site uses both 'Peirol' and 'Ptilol'? Those are not typos you know. Not twice in a row. I've never said that the dub uses Ptilol. I DID say that the Mixx manga uses "Petit Roll," which you can look up for yourself if you can take time out of your busy schedule of trying to spread patently WRONG information. Further, read on that site about the Japanese original. It says PTILOL, and shows the romanization as well as Japanese script. Well, show me YOUR direct translations of the manga. Are you questioning whether or not this person can translate Japanese?? How come whenever I give a counterargument, you expect something from me? First it was with the list of references, over which you bragged, and now it's with translating the manga. Did YOU ever translate it? I'm not her, so I obviously don't know the answer to that question. Would you like to ask her yourself? Her email address is listed on both pages, and both pages clearly state that she is the author of both. Are you questioning whether or not she authored both pages? Because if you are, it's apparent that she did, so you really have no argument. Yes, well, it still seems fishy that someone who owns a domain would build a site on Geocities, when subdomains are also available. And then there's the matter of putting the name 'Ptilol' on the Geocities site, and not on the domain. I mean, it can't be sloppiness, can it? I'd like to know her reasons. oh, please do. Everyone who is well-versed in the manga and anime agrees that it is Ptilol. You, however, who hasn't even read all the manga (you said so yourself) and know next to nothing abut Japanese, are the only one who is sticking with Puchirol. Sort of in the way that scientists agree that the world is round, but some very uneducated people still believe it to be flat. Aah yes, I've only read the manga partially, I said that, and add that to the fact that the manga that I have is the Mixx/Smile version, and I am suddenly lumped with those who think the world is flat? Just because I haven't read the manga, doesn't mean I'm gonna fall off the edge, you know. There's a difference between a manga and the concept of planets, and it's called relative triviality. I'll be eagerly awaiting those. Well, don't expect them too soon. We're currently experiencing connection instability, most pages won't load, some pages load partially and I'm uberglad I can even browse SMO. I wonder why 'Elysion' doesn't approximate 'Illusion' (which is a Levenshtein distance of 3), when 'Puchiroll' does approximate 'Ptilol' (which is a Levenshtein distance of 8). In case you ask, Levenshtein is the distance between two words. Each letter added, substracted or replaced to turn one word into another adds 1 to the distance. Because "Elysion" is the word that is being approximated. "Elysion" can't approximate "Illusion" because "Elysion" itself is an approximation!! The direct romanization is "Eryushion," once again showing your lack of knowledge of either the series itself or of the Japanese language. Eryushion approximates Elysion in the same way that Puchiroll approximates Ptilol. So if you use Elysion, then you must use Ptilol, if you follow the same logic. In that case, I'd like to know what an 'elysion' is. Googling 'define: elysion' only comes up with one definition, and that's a German one. Anyway, the Levenshtein system can't really apply in the case of romanizations and approximations. A foreign word can't be directly written in Japanese, and must be approximated with whatever characters are closest in the Japanese language. So the Levenshtein distance doesn't really matter - what matters is the word being approximated. The Levenshtein system doesn't always work anyway. Any person in his right mind will tell you that the following two sentences are the same, and are definitely related: Ice cream: chocolate and vanilla Ice cream: vanilla and chocolate The Levenshtein system, on the other hand, will tell you that those two phrases are extremely different, and have very little in common. So why use it? It only says that things which ARE related are not related. The Levenshtein argument holds no water. The only thing you've proven with that example is that there's a difference between using the Levenshtein function on words and using it on sets of words. zyppora and betty, i've been quietly lurking on this thread for the last week or so since this discussion started up. i've been enjoying both sides of the argument, although i agree with betty that the proper spelling of ptilol should be... ptilol. however, this recent exchange has me itching to throw a few more arguments into the mix. i hope y'all will both forgive me for not being able to stay quiet. You're quite welcome in joining this discussion. first of all, thanks very much for mentioning my site amongst your list of respectable sites. i appreciate that a lot. ^_^ zyroppa, you said: Ouch. I hope that's not the approximation of my name *_^;; zyroppa, you said: Given that the thrust of your argument is that puchiroll should be used because it is standard in the fandom, the responsibility actually is yours to justify that claim. beyond your words, you offer no substantial proof that if you started a thread on puchiroll, "we all know who puchiroll is". I for one would not -- before this thread, I had never heard of that version of ptilol's name. Therefore, if you suggest that everyone would know, it's up to you to find a way of backing up that claim. Basically, the only backing up I have to do, and I can do, is personal experience. When pplz start talking about 'Ptilol' and 'Perle', I don't know what they mean. Well, after this discussion, I do, but beforehand I didn't. 'Puchiroll' and 'Peruru' however, are very much known. Secondly, though Peruru is certainly more common a romanization than Perle, it simply isn't the most accurate. All the names used in the anime and manga are meaningful, while we don't ever know exactly what Ms. Takeuchi meant when she conceived of some names, I'm sure we can all agree that they are all meaningful -- i.e. she didn't pull them out of her ass. Prince Diamond (or Demando) refers to diamonds, Kaolinite (or whatever romanization of the Japanese pronounceation you want to use) refers to the mineral kaolinite, Beryl to beryl, Seraa Muun to Sailor Moon and so on and so forth. When trying to create a fansite not in the language of the original show, there are obviously going to be translation issues, but if we agree that all of Ms. Takeuchi's names are meaningful, and that we want to retain some semblance of her intended meaning in English, than we must pay respect to her intentions and translate accordingly to the word that she was using a double entendres or pun. We use Prince Diamond instead of Purinsu Demando, we use Kunzite instead of Kunsaito, etc... and for the sake of consistency, we should similarly treat Peruru as Perle and Puchirou as Ptilol. On the other hand, if we choose to disregard any semblance of meaning, we would have to treat all names accordingly and refer to Sailor Moon as Sera Muun, Cyprine as Suaipurino (or something), etc... Now, you could do that, but you would lose the signficance of the names in English because the names, spellt that way, are basically nonsensical. Names of pplz are rarely non-sensical. It would become quite awkward to just start approximating pplz names. Think of names as Johnson for example. You don't wanna approximate that. The second issue with treating names only as direct romanizations of the Japanese spoken names without regard to meaning is that you encounter the exact same problem that was mentioned earlier in this thread. There are several systems of Japanese romanizations, and so spellings will differ. Nefurito or Nefulito? Puchirou or pieroll? If you use what we can conclude are Ms. Takeuchi's intended referrences or 'easter eggs' in her character names, it gives us a guideline for more consistent spelling throughout the fandom, which gets us closer to that clarity that both betty and zyppora want. Finally, given the Japanese manga, it is inaccurate to maintain a romanized spelling of any word written in katakana if you are in an english language since katakana itself is used to approximate foreign words not actually IN the Japanese language. For example, in Japanese, the object "beer" is written and spoken "biru"... that's not a new word, that's actually the English word "beer" adopted for easier pronounceation for the Japanese language. They are actually saying the English word "beer". So, if we start talking in English, it would be inaccurate to start talking about "biru" because the word is actually "beer". Similarly, just because a name like Puchirou/Ptilol sounds like Puchirou in the anime or is written out in Japanese katakana, it doesn't necessarily mean we have to rely on the Japanese romanization if the manga is actually referring to a foreign word, in this case "ptilol". It would be more accurate to go to the actual word being approximated. You're right on the 'beer' example, but 'beer' is a noun, not a person's name. Again I say: insert namepun discussion here. Mizuno Ami doesn't mean anything, it's a person's name. However, it is a pun on mizu no ami. Same thing with approximating names to nouns. Peruru may approximate 'Perle', which, as is claimed, is the French word for pearl, but that doesn't mean you can just call the person pearl, or Perle. This guy has a name, and you should respect that. Regarding Geocities accounts -- Geocities, itself, is in no way a reference to a good or bad site. I've seen some great sites on Geocities and I've seen some crappy sites with their own domain. I've also seen great-looking sites with completely inaccurate and "I wouldn't believe anyone would write this if I didn't just see it for myself" information. The Dies Gaudii site happens to be my gold standard for accurate manga translation information (regardless of the difficulty I have navigating that site) because the webmaster does an excellent job presenting their arguments with compelling evidence from the manga, the Japanese language and grammatical rules, and even outside sources with bibliographic references. Few sites do that. My point is that just because a webmaster can't build a stunning layout doesn't mean that they can't do good research and debate accordingly. A domain doesn't necessarily mean a site is good -- it only means you have the money to throw at a domain registration, and not everyone is wealthy enough to invest in such a hobby. I've been around for quite a few years now. I don't have a public site yet, still working on the scripts, but I have two hosts so far, and a third who's likely willing to host me. I didn't pay anything at all. If you have a site with proper information, whether it be valid or not, and a decent layout, then chances are against you not being able to find someone who's willing to host you. I'm not saying it's guaranteed, but even if you look around this forum, you'll see many pplz with domains that are willing to host. Lastly, regarding the pocky box, again, I should think our layout has nothing to do with the quality of our reviews, and since I did design the current layout, have been a little disappointed by the overall dislike of it (not just from you but in general). Nonetheless, a new design is in the works and I hope you check back when it is finally unveiled. Well, I'm sorry if I offended you, but that's my opinion on the site. Normally fanart is not used in a site's layout, and I personally don't like the blog look anywayz, because I associate it with subjectivity. I haven't gotten the chance to read your reviews yet, since I was at work when I checked out whether or not your site did indeed state the name 'Ptilol' instead of 'Puchiroll' or any variation on it, but I'll be readin some reviews in the future. For reference's sake, I've rewatched episode 123, and the pronunciation in the dub is 'Petirol', with the emphasis on the 'e', and in the sub it is 'Puchiroll', with the emphasis on the 'i'.
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jenn
Scout In Training
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Post by jenn on Jun 28, 2005 9:05:15 GMT -5
I know this isn't related to the topic in this thread, but I have to say it. jenn, I love the layout of your site! I love the way Haruka and Michiru's hands pop out overtop of the updates and the site map! It's so creative and unique! thanks! those hands were really troublesome to get to work properly O.o i'm glad you liked it though. ^_^
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Post by sailorpluto7 on Jun 28, 2005 9:06:36 GMT -5
I think your troubles were worth it. I've never seen another site do that before actually.
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jenn
Scout In Training
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Post by jenn on Jun 28, 2005 9:50:03 GMT -5
You're quite welcome in joining this discussion. Thanks. ^_^ .... ooooops. ^_^ my bad. Well, that's fine. Before doing research for my site, I wouldn't have known who Perle was either... but, respectfully, that doesn't mean that just because you didn't know who perle or ptilol were, that no one would. For you to have generalized that "no one would know" is quite a generalization if the only evidence you have to base that on is yourself. Exactly. It would be very awkward to just approximate names. Which is exactly what you're doing when you romanize directly from the Japanese. If we had no written language and my name were Johnson, and then you tried to write that down, you'd come up with a whole bunch of different spellings based on the way the name sounded: Jon-sun John-san Geon-sun These would all be valid under your system in which you are approximating directly off of how the name Peruru sounded in the movie. However, we spell Johnson "Johnson" because the name isn't nonsensical, it has a meaning reflected in its spelling. Johnson is spelled Johnson because it is a reference to a family name derived from the original name "son of John". That's a valid point. But I used the beer example to explain how katakana works. If a name, in Japanese, is written in katakana, it's referencing a foreign name just like a noun written in katakana is referencing a foreign noun. Tom Cruise's name in Japanese is written in katakana, but that doesn't mean that, in English, we should start calling him Tamu Karuso (or whatever his romanization is). Mizuno Ami's name is written in hiragana and kanji, so it's obvious that her name actually IS Japanese and so it is most appropriate to romanize her name since it is obviously not intended to approximate a foreign word. Perle's name is written in the Materials books in katakana so, like Tom Cruise, if we're talking about him in the English language, it would be inaccurate to use the Japanese approximation rather than his foreign language name. And again, with the name "Peruru" you are basically doing the same thing as me spelling the name Johnson, "Geon-sun", because that's how it sounds to me, disregarding the fact that the name "Johnson" references a history in which someone got the name by being the "son of John". Similarly, since we know that the names in BSSM are meaningful, and if we can determine that Ms. Takeuchi was referencing a foreign word in Perle's name, and we can deduce that the foreign word is "Perle", then we actually ARE showing greater respect for Perle as a character by referring to him as the name Ms. Takeuchi intended to give him, rather than inventing a nonsensical one based on how it sounds. True, but that doesn't mean that a site that chooses not to be at the mercy of some host is a worse site than someone who has the right connections. If I didn't have the money for a domain, I would hesitate to host from someone who has bought a domain, because if they disappear, decide to stop paying their domain bills, or whatever, suddenly my host is gone. With Geocities and other services, even if you have to deal with pop-ups, you are guaranteed more stable service. The point is that accurate information has about nothing to do with your host or layout. By that logic, I should knock this forum because it's hosted by proboards, rather than the far more respectable services of phpBB or InvisionBoards. No serious offense taken, however, I think we're looking at two different sites because the pocky-box has an iframes/popup layout, not a blog-style layout. and again, layout has nothing to do with content. a blog-style layout doesn't mean the author is subjective... it means that the site has a blog-style layout. Nothing more. No offense intended, but you seem to subscribe a lot more to layout than is really warranted. I could design a brilliant looking layout with the content being nothing but total gibberish (which is what you do when you design layouts for other people... make up nonsensical filler content.) If I made that live, would you think my gibberish was pure fact because the layout looks nice? Which is still like calling a guy named Johnson "Geon-sun" or telling a person named "Lamb" that his name is "Lam" because you can't hear the "b" when you say his name.
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jenn
Scout In Training
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Post by jenn on Jun 28, 2005 9:51:28 GMT -5
I think your troubles were worth it. I've never seen another site do that before actually. well, makoto's dreamland (which recently went defunct) did it before me... that's where i got the idea to try it with this layout... they had the content scroll under a corner of minako's hair. but there were some problems with it -- mainly, the .gif for the hair wasn't well done so the colorization was really different from the rest of her hair.
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 28, 2005 11:49:57 GMT -5
.... ooooops. ^_^ my bad. All well. Well, that's fine. Before doing research for my site, I wouldn't have known who Perle was either... but, respectfully, that doesn't mean that just because you didn't know who perle or ptilol were, that no one would. For you to have generalized that "no one would know" is quite a generalization if the only evidence you have to base that on is yourself. Well, could you blame me for sticking to what I've learned? To go with Betty's example: the world is round, it's a proven fact, and it shows in real life wherever you go. But with Peruru's name or Puchiroll's name, how can it be proven to be 'right' or 'wrong'? Exactly. It would be very awkward to just approximate names. Which is exactly what you're doing when you romanize directly from the Japanese. If we had no written language and my name were Johnson, and then you tried to write that down, you'd come up with a whole bunch of different spellings based on the way the name sounded: Jon-sun John-san Geon-sun These would all be valid under your system in which you are approximating directly off of how the name Peruru sounded in the movie. However, we spell Johnson "Johnson" because the name isn't nonsensical, it has a meaning reflected in its spelling. Johnson is spelled Johnson because it is a reference to a family name derived from the original name "son of John". Well, I tend to write names the way they come originally. Johnson would remain Johnson, Peruru would remain Peruru. And Kunzite, as I've recently realised, isn't a valid argument in this discussion, as we have some fuss between the names Kunzite and Malakite, which I haven't cleared up yet. That's a valid point. But I used the beer example to explain how katakana works. If a name, in Japanese, is written in katakana, it's referencing a foreign name just like a noun written in katakana is referencing a foreign noun. Tom Cruise's name in Japanese is written in katakana, but that doesn't mean that, in English, we should start calling him Tamu Karuso (or whatever his romanization is). Mizuno Ami's name is written in hiragana and kanji, so it's obvious that her name actually IS Japanese and so it is most appropriate to romanize her name since it is obviously not intended to approximate a foreign word. Perle's name is written in the Materials books in katakana so, like Tom Cruise, if we're talking about him in the English language, it would be inaccurate to use the Japanese approximation rather than his foreign language name. Contrary to popular belief *glares at Betty* I do understand the Hiragana/Katakana/Kanji systems, and when and how to use them (up to a certain extent). The question I was going to ask, is if Peruru and Puchiroll's names were written in Katakana in the original manga. On a sidenote, Mizuno Ami is written in full Kanji, not Hiragana. And again, with the name "Peruru" you are basically doing the same thing as me spelling the name Johnson, "Geon-sun", because that's how it sounds to me, disregarding the fact that the name "Johnson" references a history in which someone got the name by being the "son of John". Similarly, since we know that the names in BSSM are meaningful, and if we can determine that Ms. Takeuchi was referencing a foreign word in Perle's name, and we can deduce that the foreign word is "Perle", then we actually ARE showing greater respect for Perle as a character by referring to him as the name Ms. Takeuchi intended to give him, rather than inventing a nonsensical one based on how it sounds. I think it has to do with the person's origins as well, rather than just whether or not the creator intended (or punned) the character's name to be foreign. True, but that doesn't mean that a site that chooses not to be at the mercy of some host is a worse site than someone who has the right connections. If I didn't have the money for a domain, I would hesitate to host from someone who has bought a domain, because if they disappear, decide to stop paying their domain bills, or whatever, suddenly my host is gone. With Geocities and other services, even if you have to deal with pop-ups, you are guaranteed more stable service. It's the burden of every webby: either pay the bills, be dependent or have those ugly popups/sidebars/ads/etc. To each his own I guess. The point is that accurate information has about nothing to do with your host or layout. By that logic, I should knock this forum because it's hosted by proboards, rather than the far more respectable services of phpBB or InvisionBoards. I'd rather have seen these forums build up the way they did on vBulletin, but yes, you're right. But I'd STILL go for a host without ads/popups/etc. if I had the choice. No serious offense taken, however, I think we're looking at two different sites because the pocky-box has an iframes/popup layout, not a blog-style layout. Well, I understand that there's several types of 'layouts' there, and the ones I'm used to are widely considered 'sucky' to 'excellent', having the same format. What I've recently started noticing is that with the rise of blogs, the format that you're using (big image, iframed contents) was also being used more. Many blogs use that format. Think LiveJournal for example. and again, layout has nothing to do with content. a blog-style layout doesn't mean the author is subjective... it means that the site has a blog-style layout. Nothing more. No offense intended, but you seem to subscribe a lot more to layout than is really warranted. I could design a brilliant looking layout with the content being nothing but total gibberish (which is what you do when you design layouts for other people... make up nonsensical filler content.) If I made that live, would you think my gibberish was pure fact because the layout looks nice? Back in my DBZ days, I checked out sites with nice layouts. I didn't check out sites with bad layouts. I guess that's where the whole association comes from. As I said, as soon as I get the chance, I'll be checking out those reviews. Which is still like calling a guy named Johnson "Geon-sun" or telling a person named "Lamb" that his name is "Lam" because you can't hear the "b" when you say his name. I disagree, as a guy named Johnson doesn't originate in Japan. Same goes for a person named Lamb (who should sue his parents for giving him a name like that). Puchiroll and Peruru however, do originate from Japan.
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jenn
Scout In Training
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Post by jenn on Jun 28, 2005 15:25:28 GMT -5
Well, could you blame me for sticking to what I've learned? To go with Betty's example: the world is round, it's a proven fact, and it shows in real life wherever you go. But with Peruru's name or Puchiroll's name, how can it be proven to be 'right' or 'wrong'? With the same reasoning that we know that Cyprine's name is Cyprine and Kunzite's name is Kunzite. You mentioned that you had gone back to the ep. and listened to the pronounceatioin of Ptilol's name -- what did Cyprine's name sound like and why hasn't that convinced you that her name shouldn't be Cyprine? The point is that those who use the names Perle and Ptilol have plenty of evidence supporting those choices. If you're interested in the evidence, the Dies Gaudii site linked earlier in this thread has those reasons and are very much in keeping with Ms. Takeuchi's existing naming patterns. On the other hand, there is no evidence given for the name "Puchirou", so while we can never be definitively right or wrong short of actually asking Ms. Takeuchi herself, I would propose that the choice with convincing supporting evidence (re: the Ptilol name) is slightly more right. I re-read that sentence three or four times and the logic escapes me. That seems fairly arbitrary to me -- you use names as they... come originally? As in, the first name you heard is, to you, the most correct? Sort of like a first come, first serve rationale? And the answer is that both of them are written entirely in katakana. Really? *checks*... ooops, you're right. My bad. But Sailor Mercury is written in katakana. The character's origins? Ptilol is Cyprine's double ... and both are from the Tau galaxy. Perle is an alien elf creature who steals dream energy... Respectfully, what naming rules should be applicable to those origins? The point is that, while you might not, others might have good reason to stick with a pop-up ad free service that is more reliable than an unknown person giving you space out of the kindness of their hearts. my only hostee came to me as a refugee after her shrine was *randomly* deleted without notice and with no backup. she had to rebuild it from scratch. i would go to geocities rather than let that accidentally happen to me. Uhm, I'm really trying not to be picky here, but blogs are usually done in div layers. Livejournal, as far as I know, does not by default use iframes. Neither does blogger or really, for that matter, any other blog engine that I know of because this messes with the permalinks and the basic idea of having a new page generated for each link. I've done several blog designs and iframes are not standard blog style. ... so the bottom line is that you feel puchiroll and peruru are more accurate because they "sound more Japanese"?
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 29, 2005 2:05:36 GMT -5
Well, could you blame me for sticking to what I've learned? To go with Betty's example: the world is round, it's a proven fact, and it shows in real life wherever you go. But with Peruru's name or Puchiroll's name, how can it be proven to be 'right' or 'wrong'? With the same reasoning that we know that Cyprine's name is Cyprine and Kunzite's name is Kunzite. You mentioned that you had gone back to the ep. and listened to the pronounceatioin of Ptilol's name -- what did Cyprine's name sound like and why hasn't that convinced you that her name shouldn't be Cyprine? Cyprine sounded like 'Cyprine'. Maybe that could be derived to 'Cyprin', but I don't think that would go very far. As an example of why I think it's Puchiroll and Peruru, I'd like to bring forth the names used in the ever popular anime Dragonball Z. Akira Toriyama used approximations for his characters. Splendid example would be 'Vegeta'. We all know that it approximates the word vegetable, but noone ever refers to him as 'Vegetable'. The point is that those who use the names Perle and Ptilol have plenty of evidence supporting those choices. If you're interested in the evidence, the Dies Gaudii site linked earlier in this thread has those reasons and are very much in keeping with Ms. Takeuchi's existing naming patterns. I've checked out the Witches 5 section of the Dies Gaudii site, and they say the same thing that's been said here, Ptilolite, etc. That's not evidence, that's hints. We all know that 2 + 2 = 4, but 4 does not necessarily equal 2 + 2. On the other hand, there is no evidence given for the name "Puchirou", so while we can never be definitively right or wrong short of actually asking Ms. Takeuchi herself, I would propose that the choice with convincing supporting evidence (re: the Ptilol name) is slightly more right. Well, no, 'Puchiroll' doesn't have any evidence, except for the fact that it's pronounced that way in the anime (and 'Petirol' in the dub). 'Ptilol' is never used in the animations. I re-read that sentence three or four times and the logic escapes me. That seems fairly arbitrary to me -- you use names as they... come originally? As in, the first name you heard is, to you, the most correct? Sort of like a first come, first serve rationale? Well, no, not really. I tend to do my homework on stuff like that. But the fact remains that 'Ptilol', no matter how awkward you try to pronounce those six letters, is never used in either the dub anime or the sub. That kind of makes me hesitant to use it as 'Ptilol', despite what various (fan)sites claim. And the answer is that both of them are written entirely in katakana. Well, that's one hit for you. Really? *checks*... ooops, you're right. My bad. But Sailor Mercury is written in katakana. And there's one for me. The character's origins? Ptilol is Cyprine's double ... and both are from the Tau galaxy. Perle is an alien elf creature who steals dream energy... Respectfully, what naming rules should be applicable to those origins? I'm sure you're aware of the fact that the Tau Galaxy may not exist, and that Cyprine and Puchiroll are Naoko Takeuchi's creation. Naoko Takeuchi is Japanese, and so is her creation, and the Sailor manga were originally intended for the Japanese crowd. This renders Cyprine and Puchiroll creations of Japanese origin, and even though their names are derived (I'd like to use the word 'derived' over 'approximated') from English, French, etc. nouns, they are still Japanese. The point is that, while you might not, others might have good reason to stick with a pop-up ad free service that is more reliable than an unknown person giving you space out of the kindness of their hearts. my only hostee came to me as a refugee after her shrine was *randomly* deleted without notice and with no backup. she had to rebuild it from scratch. i would go to geocities rather than let that accidentally happen to me. Well, the keyword in this paragraph would be 'unknown'. As I've said, roam around these forums, especially the sites sections, and meet pplz. Try to contact them through AIM, YIM, MSN, etc. and see if you like this person. I'm not binding you to a certain person that you've never met. I'm sure you have made some friends so far. Uhm, I'm really trying not to be picky here, but blogs are usually done in div layers. Livejournal, as far as I know, does not by default use iframes. Neither does blogger or really, for that matter, any other blog engine that I know of because this messes with the permalinks and the basic idea of having a new page generated for each link. I've done several blog designs and iframes are not standard blog style.
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 29, 2005 12:32:44 GMT -5
Sorriz for doubleposting, but I want this to be noticed. Betty Ann, Jenn, I'd like you both to know that I'm not trying to be hostile in any way. Discussing is a passion of mine, as some of the other members here will be able to tell you (unfortunately, most of those have vanished ... Creshosk, Hawk1 ... ). Though I may seem tough 'n stubborn 'in battle', I don't hold any grudges against either of you outside this thread. I'm sure Creshosk can tell you this. In fact, I've grown respect for the both of you for being as stubborn as I am ^^; And you're coming up with awesome arguments that are hard to counter as well. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying this debate to its fullest extend. Thanks for giving me a hard time!
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jenn
Scout In Training
Posts: 10
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Post by jenn on Jun 30, 2005 13:10:54 GMT -5
Cyprine sounded like 'Cyprine'. Maybe that could be derived to 'Cyprin', but I don't think that would go very far. Why does it sound like they're saying "Cyprine"? The name "Cyprine" is impossible to pronounce in Japanese as we are spelling it. By the logic that listening to Ptilol's name in the anime convinces you that her name should be "Puchirou", Cyprine's name should be "Saipurin". Why are you allowing for a meaningful translation based on approximation for Cyprine's name, but not for Ptilol? Honestly, it sounds like the only reason you don't like the names Ptilol or Perle are because you just... don't like the way the names sound or you don't know what they mean. Which is (respectfully) rather arrogant considering, bottom line, it should be only Ms. Takeuchi's intentions that matter, and not the fan's. And the truth is that if Ms. Takeuchi chooses names based on approximation to foreign words, mineral names, etc, as has been her pattern, why would she make up two random, nonsensical names for these two characters? The fact is, she wouldn't, but just because you don't "get" the reference doesn't mean the reference is suddenly invalid, inaccurate, or shouldn't be used. My understanding is that Dragonball (which I don't watch) has some sort of vegetable theme going with their character names, in that the characters are meant to pun vegetable names or something. Vegeta's name is meant to be a pun on "vegetable", just like Elysion is a pun on Illusion and Ann and Ail (or En and Al) are meant to pun the word "Alien" -- however, if the character's name is not actually written in katakana, then it's not actually a foreign word and therefore should be a romanized approximation meant to be an easter egg. So the question is -- is Vegeta's name written in katakana? If so, then his name IS meant to be some sort of foreign word. If not, then his name is meant to sound like "vegetable" but is not actually supposed to be the foreign word "vegetable". There's also the "parsimony" argument -- the most simplistic solution is the most likely. Ms. Takeuchi has established with all the Witches 5 (and actually with the majority of her villains) that the names reference existing minerals. So the first piece of evidence that we have is that Ptilol's name will follow that trend. Second piece of evidence is that Ptilol's name sounds like "Puchiro" when pronounced. Since there is no "ti" sound in Japanese, that's a fairly close approximation to the word "Ptilol". Third piece of evidence is that "Puchiro" is, itself, meaningless, violating the established theme, but Ptilol is a reference to ptilolite. For those three reasons, any meaningful use of logic would dictate that Ptilol was Ms. Takeuchi's intention and therefore should be used in any English translation of the Witches 5's names. It actually is used in the anime, because "Puchiro" IS Ptilol. It is misleading to argue that "Ptilol" is never used in the anime and "Puchiro" is because we're a) talking about how to write Ptilol's name, and b) "Puchiro" is how one would pronounce Ptilol's name in Japanese, which is not being disputed. However, it is inaccurate to use the spelling "Puchiro" in any English language discussion. See above. By the way, Ptilol is pronounced "(soft P)Teh-Loh-(soft L)" No it's not. It doesn't change my point. Which is that Mizuno Ami's name is intended to be in Japanese and any name writte in katakana, like Ptilol's name is meant to reference a foreign word -- "Ptilol", just like Sailor Mercury's name, which is always written in katakana, is meant to reference an English word. Of course. I'm pointing out the ludicrousness of pointing to "character's origins" as reasons for using certain naming origins. A) Even in Japanese, the names are written in katakana and so the Japanese audience knows, even if you do not, that a foreign word is being referenced and they are actually saying that foreign word when they are saying the character's names. B) I am really uncomfortable with the idea that you would argue that just because the anime is from Japan, that a "Japanese-sounding" name is more accurate. That's just too much fetishization of Japanese culture with complete disregard for rational thought for me. Basically you're saying any character of Japanese cultural origin must "sound Japanese" for it to be authentic. C) So... "Puchirou" is a Japanese creation but obviously "Cyprine" is not because you are making an exception for Cyprine and all other villains for whom you use proper English-language naming protocols? You still don't know the person even if you've chatted with them. You still cant trust a person for not abandoning you like you can trust an established (if annoying) service like Geocities. But this is way off-topic. Sufficed to say, I'd be careful in making generalizations as above because it's obvious you haven't spent much time being a webmaster (and so don't know the actual trials and tribulations of being privately hosted by someone nor the relative benefits of Geocities which can be a reliable service) and also it makes you seem very superficial, which I hope you're not. Anyone who actually spends time discerning all that makes a good site from a bad site realizes that your host has very little to do with the quality of your site. Yes. I'm not saying every blog uses divs. I'm saying it's totally wrong to call iframes in any sense a "blog-style" design. Go to www.truthlaidbear.com/ecosystem.php -- the premier blog-ranking system on the web, and scroll through as many of those blogs as you'd like -- there are literally thousands of blogs listed there, ranked according to popularity so you can bet that those at the top of the list are representative of all blogs out there. You'll see one common trend -- 99% or more do not use iframes. Iframes have three problems: 1) you can't usually directly access permalinks because to do so would break out of the layout frame and 2) any linked content does not bring up the associated layout and defeats the purpose of having readers leapfrog from one permalinked post to the rest of your archives and 3) all associated Google indexing issues that crop up with any sort of framed content. Most have a table/div layout to solve this problem -- the "blog-style" design is usually a two or three-column design with navigation on one side and a single middle column for content, and some sort of overhead banner or image. This is usually achieved through CSS styling and divs or tables. Keep in mind that: a) I am a contract web/graphics designer who has designed several contracted blogs. b) I am a blogger. c) I used to have an iframes-style blog so I know exactly why most people don't use them. See my previous point about katakana and the general disgust with automatically thinking a name sounding "more Japanese" is more accurate.
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jenn
Scout In Training
Posts: 10
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Post by jenn on Jun 30, 2005 13:25:17 GMT -5
Sorriz for doubleposting, but I want this to be noticed. Betty Ann, Jenn, I'd like you both to know that I'm not trying to be hostile in any way. Discussing is a passion of mine, as some of the other members here will be able to tell you (unfortunately, most of those have vanished ... Creshosk, Hawk1 ... ). Though I may seem tough 'n stubborn 'in battle', I don't hold any grudges against either of you outside this thread. I'm sure Creshosk can tell you this. In fact, I've grown respect for the both of you for being as stubborn as I am ^^; And you're coming up with awesome arguments that are hard to counter as well. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying this debate to its fullest extend. Thanks for giving me a hard time! No problem -- I like to debate so this is fine. However, what I'm sure Betty finds aggravating (and what I find a little frustrating too) is that you don't seem to be offering any counter-argument of your own. My problem at this point is that you aren't really offering any meaningful defenses of your point. Sticking to your guns is something I can respect, but, respectfully, I think you are treading a little close to mindless obstinance. I'd be willing to be swayed to at least respecting a difference of opinion if you could give me any good reason why your spellings should even be taken into consideration. I mean, so far, the summary is as follows: REASONS FOR PTILOL: - it fits the Takeuchi naming scheme (re: ptilolite) - the name is written in katakana so should not be treated as a "Japanese" name. (e.g. Mizuno Ami vs. Sailor Mercury) - you and the rest of the fandom respect the naming protocols when it comes to most other characters, including Cyprine. Therefore, it's only consistent, never mind accurate, to use Ptilol. REASONS FOR PUCHIROU: - because you don't like / don't know the way "ptilol" sounds (which should be irrelevant to the discussion) - supposed to be a romanization of the Japanese pronounceation (although it's an arbitrary spelling since it doesn't fit standard Japanese romanization rules, also because we're talking about what Ptilol's name is, not how it is pronounced in Japanese by non-English speaking voice actresses) - "Puchirou" is from a Japanese anime and so her name should sound Japanese (ignoring the fact that "Puchirou" in both Japanese and English is meaningless and violates Ms. Takeuchi's naming schema, and well... it's also kind of a disgusting view-point -- it speaks of a Japanese fetish that I really don't even want to touch with a ten-foot pole) - all the fandom knows what "Puchirou" means (no evidence given, although a google search of "Puchirou" yields four results, none in English and only one Sailor Moon related. A google search of "Ptilol" yields over 10 pages of SM related results) ... none of your reasons carry much water and I've provided all of my counter-arguments. I'm ready to stop discussing only because, not to be arrogant, but this is pointless if you can't offer any substantial reasoning for your position.
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Post by Zyppora on Jul 1, 2005 4:39:30 GMT -5
Cyprine sounded like 'Cyprine'. Maybe that could be derived to 'Cyprin', but I don't think that would go very far. Why does it sound like they're saying "Cyprine"? The name "Cyprine" is impossible to pronounce in Japanese as we are spelling it. By the logic that listening to Ptilol's name in the anime convinces you that her name should be "Puchirou", Cyprine's name should be "Saipurin". Why are you allowing for a meaningful translation based on approximation for Cyprine's name, but not for Ptilol? I wish I could tell you. Perhaps it may have to do with the fact that that's just the way I've learned it. It may also have to do with personal preference. Honestly, it sounds like the only reason you don't like the names Ptilol or Perle are because you just... don't like the way the names sound or you don't know what they mean. Which is (respectfully) rather arrogant considering, bottom line, it should be only Ms. Takeuchi's intentions that matter, and not the fan's. Yes, but I'm an arrogant guy, thankyouverymuch. I tend to be hardheaded over things and especially with learning things that prove other things I've learned false, I tend to stick to what I learned first (it's not always a good thing, I know). As with the flat world example, when pplz first heard that the world wasn't flat, but round, how many automatically believed Galileo? Not many. It's the proof that usually brings persuasion, and apart from hints, you haven't brought that in yet. And the truth is that if Ms. Takeuchi chooses names based on approximation to foreign words, mineral names, etc, as has been her pattern, why would she make up two random, nonsensical names for these two characters? The fact is, she wouldn't, but just because you don't "get" the reference doesn't mean the reference is suddenly invalid, inaccurate, or shouldn't be used. I don't know, you tell me. Demando is called Demando, even though it's derived from Diamond. However, the word 'diamond' text-translated to Japanese does not make 'demando'. It makes 'daimando'. Same thing goes for Esmeraude. I know it's derived from 'emerald', but the word 'emerald' doesn't text-translate into 'esmeraude'. Same with Rubeus. And if that system you claim to be Naoko's is true, then why did she put in names like Cooan, Beruche, Karaberas and Petz? Not to mention the SuperS and Stars sagas' villains Tigerseye, Hawkseye, Fisheye, Iron Mouse, Tin Nyanko, Aluminum Seiren and Lead Crow. My understanding is that Dragonball (which I don't watch) has some sort of vegetable theme going with their character names, in that the characters are meant to pun vegetable names or something. Vegeta's name is meant to be a pun on "vegetable", just like Elysion is a pun on Illusion and Ann and Ail (or En and Al) are meant to pun the word "Alien" -- however, if the character's name is not actually written in katakana, then it's not actually a foreign word and therefore should be a romanized approximation meant to be an easter egg. So the question is -- is Vegeta's name written in katakana? If so, then his name IS meant to be some sort of foreign word. If not, then his name is meant to sound like "vegetable" but is not actually supposed to be the foreign word "vegetable". I don't know if Vegeta's name is written in Kanji. But if it is, would you start calling him Vegetable? Just because that's what it's derived from? And yes, Dragonball Z has a vegetable theme in their names. See if you can approximate/derive them, and tell me if you'd call them that, instead of their true names: Saiyan Kakarot Vegeta Brolly Toma Radditz Paragus There's also the "parsimony" argument -- the most simplistic solution is the most likely. Ms. Takeuchi has established with all the Witches 5 (and actually with the majority of her villains) that the names reference existing minerals. So the first piece of evidence that we have is that Ptilol's name will follow that trend. Second piece of evidence is that Ptilol's name sounds like "Puchiro" when pronounced. Since there is no "ti" sound in Japanese, that's a fairly close approximation to the word "Ptilol". Third piece of evidence is that "Puchiro" is, itself, meaningless, violating the established theme, but Ptilol is a reference to ptilolite. For those three reasons, any meaningful use of logic would dictate that Ptilol was Ms. Takeuchi's intention and therefore should be used in any English translation of the Witches 5's names. For reason #1 I refer to the previously stated argument about the Four Sisters, the Dead Moon Circus and the Animates. Reason #2 would be valid, were it not that we're talking about names, not nouns. See previously posted arguments. Reason #3 is fairly the same as your reason #1, and because it is a name, it doesn't necessarily have to mean anything (though we know it's DERIVED, APPROXIMATED, A PUN ON the mineral ptilolite). It actually is used in the anime, because "Puchiro" IS Ptilol. It is misleading to argue that "Ptilol" is never used in the anime and "Puchiro" is because we're a) talking about how to write Ptilol's name, and b) "Puchiro" is how one would pronounce Ptilol's name in Japanese, which is not being disputed. However, it is inaccurate to use the spelling "Puchiro" in any English language discussion. See above. By the way, Ptilol is pronounced "(soft P)Teh-Loh-(soft L)" I hereby refer to the pronunciation of both the sub and the dub, neither of which pronounce it as Ptilol - '(soft P)Teh-Loh(soft L)'. No it's not. It doesn't change my point. Which is that Mizuno Ami's name is intended to be in Japanese and any name writte in katakana, like Ptilol's name is meant to reference a foreign word -- "Ptilol", just like Sailor Mercury's name, which is always written in katakana, is meant to reference an English word. I know all this, and I've thought about it. But I wouldn't call 'Sailor Mercury' a name. Rather, it's a title for the alter ego person that is Mizuno Ami. Yesh, I'm being extremely hardheaded again. Of course. I'm pointing out the ludicrousness of pointing to "character's origins" as reasons for using certain naming origins. A) Even in Japanese, the names are written in katakana and so the Japanese audience knows, even if you do not, that a foreign word is being referenced and they are actually saying that foreign word when they are saying the character's names. I acknowledge this fact. B) I am really uncomfortable with the idea that you would argue that just because the anime is from Japan, that a "Japanese-sounding" name is more accurate. That's just too much fetishization of Japanese culture with complete disregard for rational thought for me. Basically you're saying any character of Japanese cultural origin must "sound Japanese" for it to be authentic. Nope, only their names. C) So... "Puchirou" is a Japanese creation but obviously "Cyprine" is not because you are making an exception for Cyprine and all other villains for whom you use proper English-language naming protocols? If I can prevent confusion by doing so, then yes. You still don't know the person even if you've chatted with them. You still cant trust a person for not abandoning you like you can trust an established (if annoying) service like Geocities. You sound like you're entrusting them your life, rather than a fansite. It's a hobby, not a life-supporting necessity. I think you're blowing this a bit out of proportion. But this is way off-topic. Sufficed to say, I'd be careful in making generalizations as above because it's obvious you haven't spent much time being a webmaster (and so don't know the actual trials and tribulations of being privately hosted by someone nor the relative benefits of Geocities which can be a reliable service) and also it makes you seem very superficial, which I hope you're not. Anyone who actually spends time discerning all that makes a good site from a bad site realizes that your host has very little to do with the quality of your site. Contrary to what you state, I've been a webmaster for quite a long time, but it's been awhile. I haven't exactly kept up with how hosts and hostees treat each other (which, if I can draw conclusions from what you said, has gone down far enough to be called pathetic), but back in the days, we were kool around each other. Next to that, even if a host decides to sack you, being the smart webmaster you are, you have your whole site backed up on your computer. Yes. I'm not saying every blog uses divs. I'm saying it's totally wrong to call iframes in any sense a "blog-style" design. Go to www.truthlaidbear.com/ecosystem.php -- the premier blog-ranking system on the web, and scroll through as many of those blogs as you'd like -- there are literally thousands of blogs listed there, ranked according to popularity so you can bet that those at the top of the list are representative of all blogs out there. You'll see one common trend -- 99% or more do not use iframes. Iframes have three problems: 1) you can't usually directly access permalinks because to do so would break out of the layout frame and 2) any linked content does not bring up the associated layout and defeats the purpose of having readers leapfrog from one permalinked post to the rest of your archives and 3) all associated Google indexing issues that crop up with any sort of framed content. Most have a table/div layout to solve this problem -- the "blog-style" design is usually a two or three-column design with navigation on one side and a single middle column for content, and some sort of overhead banner or image. This is usually achieved through CSS styling and divs or tables. Keep in mind that: a) I am a contract web/graphics designer who has designed several contracted blogs. b) I am a blogger. c) I used to have an iframes-style blog so I know exactly why most people don't use them. Where did I say that 'every' blog uses divs/iframes? I said 'many', because bloggers/online diary keepers 'often' miss the HTML knowledge to make their own layout. Seems like you're bending my words (rather than twisting). See my previous point about katakana and the general disgust with automatically thinking a name sounding "more Japanese" is more accurate. Why do you keep going about 'sounding'?! I thought I was being clear about 'origin'. Sorriz for doubleposting, but I want this to be noticed. Betty Ann, Jenn, I'd like you both to know that I'm not trying to be hostile in any way. Discussing is a passion of mine, as some of the other members here will be able to tell you (unfortunately, most of those have vanished ... Creshosk, Hawk1 ... ). Though I may seem tough 'n stubborn 'in battle', I don't hold any grudges against either of you outside this thread. I'm sure Creshosk can tell you this. In fact, I've grown respect for the both of you for being as stubborn as I am ^^; And you're coming up with awesome arguments that are hard to counter as well. Nonetheless, I'm enjoying this debate to its fullest extend. Thanks for giving me a hard time! No problem -- I like to debate so this is fine. However, what I'm sure Betty finds aggravating (and what I find a little frustrating too) is that you don't seem to be offering any counter-argument of your own. My problem at this point is that you aren't really offering any meaningful defenses of your point. Sticking to your guns is something I can respect, but, respectfully, I think you are treading a little close to mindless obstinance. I'd be willing to be swayed to at least respecting a difference of opinion if you could give me any good reason why your spellings should even be taken into consideration. One good reason? Because it's the way Naoko writes it. I mean, so far, the summary is as follows: REASONS FOR PTILOL: - it fits the Takeuchi naming scheme (re: ptilolite) Counter: Four Sisters, Dead Moon Circus, Animates. - the name is written in katakana so should not be treated as a "Japanese" name. (e.g. Mizuno Ami vs. Sailor Mercury) Counter: names vs. nouns. - you and the rest of the fandom respect the naming protocols when it comes to most other characters, including Cyprine. Therefore, it's only consistent, never mind accurate, to use Ptilol. Counter: fandom vs. Naoko (you brought this one up yourself). REASONS FOR PUCHIROU: - because you don't like / don't know the way "ptilol" sounds (which should be irrelevant to the discussion) It is, I thought I made that clear. - supposed to be a romanization of the Japanese pronounceation (although it's an arbitrary spelling since it doesn't fit standard Japanese romanization rules, also because we're talking about what Ptilol's name is, not how it is pronounced in Japanese by non-English speaking voice actresses) Which would explain why the dub pronounces it as 'Petirol', right? - "Puchirou" is from a Japanese anime and so her name should sound Japanese (ignoring the fact that "Puchirou" in both Japanese and English is meaningless and violates Ms. Takeuchi's naming schema, and well... it's also kind of a disgusting view-point -- it speaks of a Japanese fetish that I really don't even want to touch with a ten-foot pole) Names don't need meanings. And it shouldn't sound Japanese, but it would be the most beautiful way. Instead, I'd like to think that her name should be written as in the Japanese way, rather than sound like it. - all the fandom knows what "Puchirou" means (no evidence given, although a google search of "Puchirou" yields four results, none in English and only one Sailor Moon related. A google search of "Ptilol" yields over 10 pages of SM related results) There's many ways in which Puchirol can be spelled, most of them not even Levenshtein distanced 2 from 'Puchirol'. Google will give various numbers of results if we try those possibilities. The problem is confusion (as I've previously pointed out) over how to spell her name. Even google suffers from it. ... none of your reasons carry much water and I've provided all of my counter-arguments. I'm ready to stop discussing only because, not to be arrogant, but this is pointless if you can't offer any substantial reasoning for your position. If that's the case ... then I guess this debate is over, right?
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jenn
Scout In Training
Posts: 10
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Post by jenn on Jul 1, 2005 10:22:44 GMT -5
I wish I could tell you. Perhaps it may have to do with the fact that that's just the way I've learned it. It may also have to do with personal preference. Yes, but I'm an arrogant guy, thankyouverymuch. I tend to be hardheaded over things and especially with learning things that prove other things I've learned false, I tend to stick to what I learned first (it's not always a good thing, I know). As with the flat world example, when pplz first heard that the world wasn't flat, but round, how many automatically believed Galileo? Not many. It's the proof that usually brings persuasion, and apart from hints, you haven't brought that in yet. So again, we see that this actually has nothing to do with accuracy, consistency or any real evidence. antares7.absoludicrous.net/minerals/blackmoon/index.html That link (from the Dies Gaudii website, should it work) covers the naming schema of the black moon family. If you're interested in the mineral references of the Ayakashi Sisters, you can see my site: www.moonsenshi.org/Information/Mythology/Villains/index.phpThe names are spelled: Koan, Berthier, Calaveras and Petz, by the same logic that katakana is used to approximate a foreign word -- katakana is used when Japanese romanization rules are not apply but rather a foreign word is either being referenced or approximated, so to translate the name requires finding out what word is either being referenced or approximated and spelling accordingly. I said many of the villains are named after minerals, not all. Go back and check -- I did cover my bases. And certainly, it hardly makes sense for you to argue that Ptilol's name should be nonsensical because another group of villains aren't named after minerals: a) the group to which Ptilol belongs IS named after minerals (i.e. the Witches 5) b) all the groups DO have a common naming schema, although they are not all mineral names, emphasizing that all Ms. Takeuchi's names do have a meaning. "Puchirou" has no meaning. Neither does "Peruru". Therefore they are huge violations of the basic rule that the vast majority of the characters in BSSM have some sort of pun or dual meaning in their name and all of the villains are named something related to a foreign word not in the Japanese language. No, I would write it "Vegeta" because that is the approximation of the word "vegetable" being referenced and spell it like the first three syllables of vegetable. However, if his name were written in kanji, as you hypothesize above, then I would write his name "Vejita" because that would be the proper romanization of a kanji word indicating that it is in fact Japanese. Right, ptilol is a pun or reference to ptilolite. But it's incorrect to spell it "puchirou" because that is a romanization of a Japanese pronounceation of a foreign word which we know because it's written in katakana. A logical fallacy: The Japanese ARE pronouncing "ptilol", but they are doing so in Japanese, which has no "pti" or "lo" sound. Just like when the Japanese say "biru"... they're still saying "beer". You can't say that the word "Ptilol" isn't being pronounced by just ignoring the adaptation of foreign words into the Japanese set of linguistic sounds. You can't point to the dub as any sort of indication of what a name in the Japanese anime or manga should be. It's a dub. Ms. Takeuchi didn't translate any of the names so it's not even an indication of intention. And besides, the dub got a bunch of OTHER names wrong and... also... just made stuff up... ... and this has what to do with treatment of words spelled with katakana into English? And again I point to the fact that nothing but arrogance is fueling this and nothing more, if you're blatantly and arbitrarily disregarding rules for naming to suit your own personal preferences. I don't disagree with that, but personally, I would rather trust a service with my site than a person. But frankly, I think you blew it out of proportion when you tried to argue that getting a person to host your site -- out of the kindness of their heart and nothing more -- is automatically the indication of a better webmaster than someone who uses a more reliable, freely available service. That's just superficial and the mark of an undiscerning webmaster if indeed you are. You called iframes "blog-style". That's just patently false... and now I see you're backtracking because I don't think you can point to a single consistent practice in the blog-world of using iframes or anything like that to even qualify your use of "many". And what does using iframes, specifically, have anything to do with knowing or not knowing how to make a layout? Yes, she does. In katakana. Errr. Try again. Counter: Ms. Takeuchi has established that almost all of the character names, and especially villain names, are meaningful. Yeah. That's gross. It shouldn't "sound Japanese" but "the Japanese way is more beautiful"? Disgusting. So... "everyone would know" if you started a thread on "Puchirou", no one would know who you're talking about if you started a thread on Ptilol, but Google can't list a single English language BSSM site when various spellings of "Puchirou" are used as search terms while ten pages of BSSM sites are listed when "Ptilol" is googled?
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