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Post by sailorpluto7 on Jun 21, 2005 20:49:14 GMT -5
You forgot Pikachu in there. Anywayz, who determines that those are erroreous ways of writing her name? Surely not Takeuchi-sama. Besides, I never once hear the anime characters try 'n pronounce a name like 'Ptilol'. I would have been sure to have noticed that. So I say it's pretty good that that site's blocked, coz it contains bogus info. Those are erroneous ways of writing the name in English because the Japanese word is clearly meant to approximate "Ptilol," none of those other made-up words. Because the language system is different, they can't just write out "Ptilol." Any word that is not a native Japanese word must be approximated with different characters. But we don't use the direct romanization, we use the word it was trying to approximate. I will use an example to more clearly demonstrate my point. Would you say "Kunzite" or "Kuntsuaito?" You'd obviously say Kunzite. But the direct romanization of the Japanese characters making up that word would be "Kuntsaito." So why don't you say that? Because it's clearly trying to approximate the word Kunzite. For the same reason, we should say "Perle" (the French word for "pearl," which is being approximated), instead of "Peruru," the direct romanization. And we should say "Mercury" instead of "Maakyurii" (once again, the direct romanization), because it is obviously approximating the word "Mercury." That said, the correct name is Ptilol. Click here to find out why it's PtilolThat link still is not working BettyAnn. Sorry..
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 22, 2005 2:14:33 GMT -5
You forgot Pikachu in there. Anywayz, who determines that those are erroreous ways of writing her name? Surely not Takeuchi-sama. Besides, I never once hear the anime characters try 'n pronounce a name like 'Ptilol'. I would have been sure to have noticed that. So I say it's pretty good that that site's blocked, coz it contains bogus info. Those are erroneous ways of writing the name in English because the Japanese word is clearly meant to approximate "Ptilol," none of those other made-up words. Because the language system is different, they can't just write out "Ptilol." Any word that is not a native Japanese word must be approximated with different characters. But we don't use the direct romanization, we use the word it was trying to approximate. I will use an example to more clearly demonstrate my point. Would you say "Kunzite" or "Kuntsuaito?" You'd obviously say Kunzite. But the direct romanization of the Japanese characters making up that word would be "Kuntsaito." So why don't you say that? Because it's clearly trying to approximate the word Kunzite. For the same reason, we should say "Perle" (the French word for "pearl," which is being approximated), instead of "Peruru," the direct romanization. And we should say "Mercury" instead of "Maakyurii" (once again, the direct romanization), because it is obviously approximating the word "Mercury." That said, the correct name is Ptilol. Click here to find out why it's PtilolActually, I do pronounce Kunzite as 'Kunzaito', Mercury as 'Maakyurii', Peruru as 'Peruru'. Sometimes even write them as that (such as now). However, I will continue to spell Peruru as Peruru, I will continue to write Puchiroll as Puchiroll (or however it's spelled ) and Ptilol sounds too much like they're making fun of her. Btw, my reason for being so stubborn about this is because it looks an awful lot like the dub has something to do with naming her Ptilol (Naoko-san would have NEVER done such a thing) and we all know my views on the dub.
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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 22, 2005 11:38:17 GMT -5
Actually, I do pronounce Kunzite as 'Kunzaito', Mercury as 'Maakyurii', Peruru as 'Peruru'. Sometimes even write them as that (such as now). However, I will continue to spell Peruru as Peruru, I will continue to write Puchiroll as Puchiroll (or however it's spelled ) and Ptilol sounds too much like they're making fun of her. Btw, my reason for being so stubborn about this is because it looks an awful lot like the dub has something to do with naming her Ptilol (Naoko-san would have NEVER done such a thing) and we all know my views on the dub. You can't just randomly pick and choose where you want to apply the rule. If you want to write everything as a direct romanization, like Peruru, you're going to have to write Kuntsuaito as well. And writing it as Peruru is WRONG. "Kuntsuaito" CLEARLY approximates the word Kunzite, and Peruru CLEARLY approximates the word "Perle" (French word for Perle). Why would you have a problem calling Perle by his ACTUAL name? Naoko obviously meant for it to be taken as the French word for pearl. She named most of the villains in the move for French words, and Perle is no exception. His entire image is based on pearls. And if you'd pay attention and stop being so hard-headed, you'd see that his name is Perle, no Peruru - in the same way it's Kunzite instead of Kunsuaito. And if you'd actually try to educate yourself instead of assuming that you know everything, you'd see that Naoko DID mean for it to be Ptilol. She is named after the MINERAL Ptilolite... are you trying to say Naoko would never name her after a mineral? When the name of that mineral is written in Japanese, it must be approximated (because the language obviously cannot write a word like that straight out), so the approximation is puchiroru-fusseki (the fusseiki is added because of the mineral group it is in). So in Japanese, Ptilol becomes Puchiroru. So if you are only using direct romanizations, you HAVE to use Puchiroru. Since she was named after the mineral Ptilolite BY NAOKO, that would mean the dub has NOTHING to do with the spelling Ptilol. Why, exactly, do you think "Naoko would never do such a thing?" She would never name a character after a mineral? Are you insane? It would be like only saying "Maakyurii" and claiming that that is what Naoko meant, because "the dub has something to do with Ptilol." For the record, the Mixx manga (dub) calls her Petit Roll, which is totally bizarre. If you're going to hate a spelling, hate that one... NOT the one that Naoko intended. I'm going to try this one more time... it's linked to my page, so it SHOULD work this time... just click the link on this page to see the original page we're talking about. And I DO advise you read it, so that you'll stop spreading false information. You yourself said you don't even know how to spell whatever romanization you want to use, so perhaps you should take a moment to learn something. soul-hunter.com/sailormoon/ptilol.htmlI will continue to write Puchiroll as Puchiroll (or however it's spelled ) The unwillingness to learn is a terrible thing.
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 23, 2005 4:17:40 GMT -5
Actually, I do pronounce Kunzite as 'Kunzaito', Mercury as 'Maakyurii', Peruru as 'Peruru'. Sometimes even write them as that (such as now). However, I will continue to spell Peruru as Peruru, I will continue to write Puchiroll as Puchiroll (or however it's spelled ) and Ptilol sounds too much like they're making fun of her. Btw, my reason for being so stubborn about this is because it looks an awful lot like the dub has something to do with naming her Ptilol (Naoko-san would have NEVER done such a thing) and we all know my views on the dub. You can't just randomly pick and choose where you want to apply the rule. If you want to write everything as a direct romanization, like Peruru, you're going to have to write Kuntsuaito as well. And writing it as Peruru is WRONG. "Kuntsuaito" CLEARLY approximates the word Kunzite, and Peruru CLEARLY approximates the word "Perle" (French word for Perle). Why would you have a problem calling Perle by his ACTUAL name? Naoko obviously meant for it to be taken as the French word for pearl. She named most of the villains in the move for French words, and Perle is no exception. His entire image is based on pearls. And if you'd pay attention and stop being so hard-headed, you'd see that his name is Perle, no Peruru - in the same way it's Kunzite instead of Kunsuaito. Well, first of all, my choices are my own to make. If I wanna write Peruru and Kunzite, then I do. Nobody can make me write them otherwise. Second, Naoko never meant for Peruru to be taken as a French word. In fact, if you had LEARNED a bit more on Naoko Takeuchi herself, you would have known that she's obsessed over gems and other stones. That's how she picked the names for her characters, NOT because she wanted them to be pronounced in a French way (who the hell would want their creation to be pronounced in French anywayz?). I know this is basically undermining my own stuff, but alas, so be it. And if you'd actually try to educate yourself instead of assuming that you know everything, you'd see that Naoko DID mean for it to be Ptilol. She is named after the MINERAL Ptilolite... are you trying to say Naoko would never name her after a mineral? When the name of that mineral is written in Japanese, it must be approximated (because the language obviously cannot write a word like that straight out), so the approximation is puchiroru-fusseki (the fusseiki is added because of the mineral group it is in). So in Japanese, Ptilol becomes Puchiroru. So if you are only using direct romanizations, you HAVE to use Puchiroru. I know most of that by now. Thanks for EDUCATING me. But I still write her name as Puchiroll, whether you like it or not. Since she was named after the mineral Ptilolite BY NAOKO, that would mean the dub has NOTHING to do with the spelling Ptilol. Why, exactly, do you think "Naoko would never do such a thing?" She would never name a character after a mineral? Are you insane? It would be like only saying "Maakyurii" and claiming that that is what Naoko meant, because "the dub has something to do with Ptilol." For the record, the Mixx manga (dub) calls her Petit Roll, which is totally bizarre. If you're going to hate a spelling, hate that one... NOT the one that Naoko intended. Hmmz. Naoko made her name Puchiroru, after the mineral. She also made Sailor Moon for Japan. In Japan, Ptilolite is pronounced as Puchiroru-fusseki, just like you said. The Japanese never pronounced her name as Ptilol. It WAS the dubbing, you know. Naoko never intended for her name to be pronounced in any other language than Japanese, unlike Seeraa Maakyurii (Sailor Mercury), etc. I'm going to try this one more time... it's linked to my page, so it SHOULD work this time... just click the link on this page to see the original page we're talking about. And I DO advise you read it, so that you'll stop spreading false information. You yourself said you don't even know how to spell whatever romanization you want to use, so perhaps you should take a moment to learn something. soul-hunter.com/sailormoon/ptilol.htmlI will continue to write Puchiroll as Puchiroll (or however it's spelled ) The unwillingness to learn is a terrible thing. I read it. And it assumes what I just denied: that Naoko intended for the name Puchiroru to be pronounced in English.
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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 23, 2005 7:39:37 GMT -5
You are the most stubborn person I have ever encountered. If Naoko intended for Perle to be written as "Peruru," then WHY did she use the Japanese approximation of the French word "Perle"?? Why didn't she use the English word, Pearl? Or even the Japanese word for pearl? Instead, she used the French word, Perle. And since it's not a native Japanese word, it has to be approximated as Peruru. The characters she used DEFINITELY, WITHOUT DOUBT show that she meant to use the French word Perle, beause THAT IS THE WAY THAT WORD IS WRITTEN IN JAPANESE. Similarly, Kunzite and Ptilol are NOT native Japanese words. They're just not. That means that they have to be approximated. Kunzite is approximated as "Kunsuaito," so why not write it that way? Because it's clearly intended to be Kunzite. Similarly, Ptilol is CLEARLY intended to be named after the mineral Ptilolite, which is NOT a Japanese word. So they have to approximate it differently in Japan. Why is this so hard for you to understand? If it's not a Japanese word, it has to be approximated. Period, end of discussion. And the approximation is clearly meant to be taken as the actual word itself. Just like "Mercury" can't be written in Japanese, neither can "Ptilol." They're NOT Japanese words - they MUST be approximated. It's really the exact same concept. And if YOU know anything about Naoko Takeuchi, you'll know that she used French and English words all over the manga. You need to get your facts straight, maybe learn a little bit about what you're talking about before you make any more stupid statements. Second, Naoko never meant for Peruru to be taken as a French word. In fact, if you had LEARNED a bit more on Naoko Takeuchi herself, you would have known that she's obsessed over gems and other stones. That's how she picked the names for her characters, NOT because she wanted them to be pronounced in a French way (who the hell would want their creation to be pronounced in French anywayz?). She also writes several words in French and English throughout the manga. Why wouldn't she write them in Japanese? Because she intended them to be in French or English. There are MANY attack names and items that are given French names. You should do your homework and read the manga. Familiarize yourself with Sailor Moon - you might learn something. If she didn't want things in French, she wouldn't have used French words for things. She uses French ALL OVER the place - as well as English. Hmmz. Naoko made her name Puchiroru, after the mineral. She also made Sailor Moon for Japan. In Japan, Ptilolite is pronounced as Puchiroru-fusseki, just like you said. The Japanese never pronounced her name as Ptilol. It WAS the dubbing, you know. Naoko never intended for her name to be pronounced in any other language than Japanese, unlike Seeraa Maakyurii (Sailor Mercury), etc. Thanks for proving my point! Ptilol is NOT a Japanese word. Neither is Kunzite, and both are gemstones. Since neither are Japanese words, they have to be approximated by the Japanese language. That means they'll be approximated as Kunsuaito and Puchiroru. But that's ONLY because there is NO way to write Kunzite OR Ptilol in Japanese - they are NOT JAPANESE WORDS. If Ptilol was a native Japanese word written as Puchiroru, then that argument would make sense. But it is NOT a Japanese word at all. Similarly, Kunzite is not a Japanese word, and we write it the correct way, not as Kunsuaito (the approximation), because it is MEANT to be Kunzite. Why would a NON-JAPANESE word not be meant to be pronounced the NON-JAPANESE way? That would be the same as saying we should say "Maakyuuri" because "it's not meant to be pronounced in any other language than Japanese." That doesn't make sense. Again, PTILOL IS NOT A JAPANESE WORD.
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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 23, 2005 10:32:54 GMT -5
Note - this is in a different post because it is a different idea which needs to be stated alone. Alright, look. As far as PERLE goes, it is not Peruru. Let me SHOW you why. The character is obviously based on pearls. The entire Materials Collection Page talks about. Go to Alex Glover's page for a translation, since you obviously know nothing about Japanese. Look closely at the top of the page, and you'll see . That word is INDISPUTABLY the word for the French approximation of "pearl," which is "perle." It can't be written directly into Japanese, and therefore it is written with an approximation. The JAPANESE word for pearl is shinju, and it is written in KANJI. The ENGLISH word for pearl is written as , and is approximated as paru. If we were saying the word, we would say "pearl," because it is an ENGLISH word. But when writing it in Japanese, it must be written as "paru," because there is no way to directly write "pearl" in Japanese. It has to be approximated. When you write it in English, you still write pearl. If we were in Japan, writing in English, it would be stupid and senseless to write "paru" in Roman letters because we are obviously writing something that is in English. The FRENCH word for pearl is "perle," and when writing it in Japanese, it is written , and is approximated "Peruru." "Peruru" is not a Japanese word or name. It means absolutely nothing in Japanese. However, it is the approximation of the word "Perle" in French. The character is CLEARLY named for pearls. So do you think Naoko would use a nonsense word that doesn't mean anything, or would she use a French word meaning Pearl? Take into consideration the fact that he is named for a gemstone, and there are SEVERAL words in both French and English throughout the manga and anime. Aside from the logical reasons for all this, there is the absolutely indisputable fact that when you write "perle," the French word, IN JAPANESE, you write . That can't even be argued... when you directly translate that word into Japanese text, YOU WRITE !! Similarly, if you write the word Mercury in English, it's not going to say Mercury, it's going to literally say "Maakyurii." But you don't write that... you write "Mercury," because it's obviously intended to be the English word Mercury. Now, can you give me a compelling reason NOT to use the word which it INDISPUTABLY approximates? Or, can you explain why she'd write a FRENCH WORD in Japanese if she didn't mean for it to be a French word? If not, you should start saying "Maakyurii" instead of Mercury - because it's exactly the same argument.
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 24, 2005 2:16:11 GMT -5
You are the most stubborn person I have ever encountered. Thank you. If Naoko intended for Perle to be written as "Peruru," then WHY did she use the Japanese approximation of the French word "Perle"?? Why didn't she use the English word, Pearl? Or even the Japanese word for pearl? Instead, she used the French word, Perle. And since it's not a native Japanese word, it has to be approximated as Peruru. The characters she used DEFINITELY, WITHOUT DOUBT show that she meant to use the French word Perle, beause THAT IS THE WAY THAT WORD IS WRITTEN IN JAPANESE. I just thought of something, and I know it's weak, but it's there. I haven't read the full series of the manga yet, and I wonder if the movies are included in them? Does there even exist a PERURU in the manga? If so, alas, if not, then I wonder if Naoko had anything to do with him at all. Similarly, Kunzite and Ptilol are NOT native Japanese words. They're just not. That means that they have to be approximated. Kunzite is approximated as "Kunsuaito," so why not write it that way? Because it's clearly intended to be Kunzite. Similarly, Ptilol is CLEARLY intended to be named after the mineral Ptilolite, which is NOT a Japanese word. So they have to approximate it differently in Japan. Kunzite is approximated as 'kunzaito', so wny not write it that way? Because we know who we talk about. We're talking about the white-haired dude from the first saga, who helped Queen Beryl. Why use Puchiroll instead of Ptilol? Why use Peruru instead of Perle? Because that way, we know who we talk about. If I made a thread on these forums, saying 'What did you think of Perle?', then most of the replies would be 'Who's Perle?'. If I made a thread 'What did you think of Peruru?', I'm sure I'd get the desired result. Same with 'What did you think of Ptilol?' and 'What did you think of Puchiroll?'. Only the dubbies would be able to answer the first. Why is this so hard for you to understand? If it's not a Japanese word, it has to be approximated. Period, end of discussion. And the approximation is clearly meant to be taken as the actual word itself. Just like "Mercury" can't be written in Japanese, neither can "Ptilol." They're NOT Japanese words - they MUST be approximated. It's really the exact same concept. And if YOU know anything about Naoko Takeuchi, you'll know that she used French and English words all over the manga. You need to get your facts straight, maybe learn a little bit about what you're talking about before you make any more stupid statements. Well, I wouldn't know about the manga, as I've stated before, I haven't read it fully yet. However, I'd like to disagree with the fact that she used English and French all over, as you claim. Especially if you mean the names of villains and other characters. To give a practical example, Ptilol, derived from Ptilolite, is neither an English nor a French word. It's Greek and means 'feather stone'. Second, Naoko never meant for Peruru to be taken as a French word. In fact, if you had LEARNED a bit more on Naoko Takeuchi herself, you would have known that she's obsessed over gems and other stones. That's how she picked the names for her characters, NOT because she wanted them to be pronounced in a French way (who the hell would want their creation to be pronounced in French anywayz?). She also writes several words in French and English throughout the manga. Why wouldn't she write them in Japanese? Because she intended them to be in French or English. There are MANY attack names and items that are given French names. You should do your homework and read the manga. Familiarize yourself with Sailor Moon - you might learn something. If she didn't want things in French, she wouldn't have used French words for things. She uses French ALL OVER the place - as well as English. Yes, I know about the magical phrases being in English (not in French though), and their names being in English (not in French). Hmmz. Naoko made her name Puchiroru, after the mineral. She also made Sailor Moon for Japan. In Japan, Ptilolite is pronounced as Puchiroru-fusseki, just like you said. The Japanese never pronounced her name as Ptilol. It WAS the dubbing, you know. Naoko never intended for her name to be pronounced in any other language than Japanese, unlike Seeraa Maakyurii (Sailor Mercury), etc. Thanks for proving my point! Ptilol is NOT a Japanese word. Neither is Kunzite, and both are gemstones. Since neither are Japanese words, they have to be approximated by the Japanese language. That means they'll be approximated as Kunsuaito and Puchiroru. But that's ONLY because there is NO way to write Kunzite OR Ptilol in Japanese - they are NOT JAPANESE WORDS. If Ptilol was a native Japanese word written as Puchiroru, then that argument would make sense. But it is NOT a Japanese word at all. Similarly, Kunzite is not a Japanese word, and we write it the correct way, not as Kunsuaito (the approximation), because it is MEANT to be Kunzite. Why would a NON-JAPANESE word not be meant to be pronounced the NON-JAPANESE way? That would be the same as saying we should say "Maakyuuri" because "it's not meant to be pronounced in any other language than Japanese." That doesn't make sense. Again, PTILOL IS NOT A JAPANESE WORD. Neither is Ptilol an English word, as explained above. In fact, the name 'Ptilol' is derived from Ptilolite, a deprecated name for the mineral Mordenite. Note - this is in a different post because it is a different idea which needs to be stated alone. Alright, look. As far as PERLE goes, it is not Peruru. Let me SHOW you why. The character is obviously based on pearls. The entire Materials Collection Page talks about. Go to Alex Glover's page for a translation, since you obviously know nothing about Japanese. Look closely at the top of the page, and you'll see . That word is INDISPUTABLY the word for the French approximation of "pearl," which is "perle." It can't be written directly into Japanese, and therefore it is written with an approximation. But AGAIN, if I ask about Perle, pplz will reply with 'who?', if I ask about Peruru, they'll give me their opinions. The JAPANESE word for pearl is shinju, and it is written in KANJI. The ENGLISH word for pearl is written as , and is approximated as paru. If we were saying the word, we would say "pearl," because it is an ENGLISH word. But when writing it in Japanese, it must be written as "paru," because there is no way to directly write "pearl" in Japanese. It has to be approximated. When you write it in English, you still write pearl. If we were in Japan, writing in English, it would be stupid and senseless to write "paru" in Roman letters because we are obviously writing something that is in English. Paru? Where did the trailing 'L' go? The FRENCH word for pearl is "perle," and when writing it in Japanese, it is written , and is approximated "Peruru." "Peruru" is not a Japanese word or name. It means absolutely nothing in Japanese. However, it is the approximation of the word "Perle" in French. The character is CLEARLY named for pearls. So do you think Naoko would use a nonsense word that doesn't mean anything, or would she use a French word meaning Pearl? Take into consideration the fact that he is named for a gemstone, and there are SEVERAL words in both French and English throughout the manga and anime. Wait a minute, how can you claim a word NOT to be a name? You don't know that. I've seen crazier words that were used as a name. Same with the Senshi's names. Mizuno Ami doesn't mean a thing, because it's a name, just like John Smith. (insert namepun discussion here) Aside from the logical reasons for all this, there is the absolutely indisputable fact that when you write "perle," the French word, IN JAPANESE, you write . That can't even be argued... when you directly translate that word into Japanese text, YOU WRITE !! Similarly, if you write the word Mercury in English, it's not going to say Mercury, it's going to literally say "Maakyurii." But you don't write that... you write "Mercury," because it's obviously intended to be the English word Mercury. Now, can you give me a compelling reason NOT to use the word which it INDISPUTABLY approximates? Or, can you explain why she'd write a FRENCH WORD in Japanese if she didn't mean for it to be a French word? If not, you should start saying "Maakyurii" instead of Mercury - because it's exactly the same argument. My reason for not using the word which it, according to you, indisputably approximates, is clarity. We all know who Mercury is, we all know who Kunzite is, and we all know who Peruru is, and we all know who Puchiroll is. I have a question for you. Pegasus, the horned guy/unicorn with wings from SuperS, came from a different world. Which world is that?
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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 24, 2005 15:25:34 GMT -5
So you're saying that we should use "Puchiroll" (which, I might point out, you recently stated that you didn't know how to spell), the incorrect spelling, because it is more common If we followed that logic, we'd all still think the Earth was flat. That's a brilliant idea: Keep everyone stupidly spouting off misinformation just because it's "what they're used to." Well, you can say whatever stupid thing you want, but you should know that you're only making yourself look like an idiot. You said yourself that you haven't even read all of the manga, and you clearly have no knowledge of the Japanese language. All of the reputable Sailor Moon websites, people who have read the manga and who KNOW Japanese, say Ptilol. Want a list of references? It shouldn't be hard - just visit any of the up-to-date, reliable Sailor Moon websites. You're only making yourself look stupid. And just so you know, Naoko Takeuchi DID create Perle. You'll find him in the Materials Collection artbook, along with the other characters from the S movie.
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 25, 2005 1:16:59 GMT -5
I'd like to see that list of references. Other than that, I'm going to disregard that last post and request you to answer the previously asked question.
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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 25, 2005 11:58:39 GMT -5
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 27, 2005 3:44:12 GMT -5
I'd like to see that list of references. Other than that, I'm going to disregard that last post and request you to answer the previously asked question. Oh, I have QUITE a list of references. Here are some sites where you'll find the name Ptilol, all of which are very good, reliable sites of people who KNOW what they're talking about. Why don't you show me some crappy little websites that say "Puchirol," hm? First of all, I don't brag about lists of references, so I owe you nothing. Your own site? Come on, you don't expect me to actually check it out just to see if you wrote Ptilol there, do you? thetour.animehunters.com/mareingenii/dubbed/evilatwork_03.htmlIt CLEARLY says 'Peiroll' twice on that page (which approximates 'payroll' possibly? I guess Takeuchi was interested in other things than gems as well, it seems). Very good? Reliable? That site doesn't even have a layout. That's one site. That's two. Here we have a fansite with mediocre graphics and no structure. Geocities, aah yes, I used to have a site there ... I think. That was back in the days when I was young, naïve and underinformed about stuff like anime. www.usagiandmamoru.com/manga/um910.htmlI see it says 'Pucherol' ... I didn't bother checking these sites out, as they don't provide me with any information. Out of 8 sites that you posted here, only 2 seemed to actually support the name 'Ptilol'. And to answer your question, Helios/Pegasus lives in Elysion. See above sites for reference. I wonder why 'Elysion' doesn't approximate 'Illusion' (which is a Levenshtein distance of 3), when 'Puchiroll' does approximate 'Ptilol' (which is a Levenshtein distance of 8). In case you ask, Levenshtein is the distance between two words. Each letter added, substracted or replaced to turn one word into another adds 1 to the distance.
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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 27, 2005 7:27:15 GMT -5
What the hell is wrong with you? I mean, seriously, what is your problem?
I'd like to note that on Bunny's Tour Trough the Silver Millennium, you listed the DUB page with the Pieroll spelling. Check out the page for the ORIGINAL version on that site. You're the one who hates the dub so much. Again, this just shows me YOUR stupidity, because you can't even figure out the difference between a dub page and an original version page,
The Alex Glover translations are pretty much the ONLY translations on the net. Layout isn't everything on a site - anyone stupid enough to believe that layout is the only thing making up a site needs a reality check.
Also, just because a site is hosted on geocities does not take away from its accuracy. As noted, that author also owns SailorDream.com, which, if I'm not mistaken, IS A DOMAIN. Hello. And if you'd look at that site, you'd see that she knows a hell of a lot more about Sailor Moon than you do.
The Sailor Moon Pocky Box is not a "crappy little fansite" - if you'd get your head out of your butt and look, you'd see that it is a review site, which is run by some of the best Sailor Moon webmasters - one of whom you decided was a good reference (owner of moonsenshi.org). So what's your point about owning a geocities site? She obviously knows a lot about Sailor Moon, and she also owns a domain. So are you saying that she's right on the domain, but wrong on geocities? That would fit your weird, twisted logic perfectly...
The other sites at the end, as stated, do not have info about Ptilol ON the site, but the owners agree that it is Ptilol. Don't believe me? Ask them.
So, out of 8 sites, 8 agree that Ptilol is accurate.
You clearly didn't even bother looking at most of those sites. These are the best Sailor Moon websites in the community. I'd LOVE to see you come up with 8 excellent Sailor Moon websites that say that Ptilol is wrong - but you can't. You'll never find them, because they don't exist.
Again, these are all sites who have READ the manga, and are FAMILIAR with Japanese. They have SEEN the anime. Your complete lack of ANY information leads me to wonder if you've ever even heard of Sailor Moon.
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Post by Zyppora on Jun 27, 2005 8:10:15 GMT -5
What the hell is wrong with you? I mean, seriously, what is your problem? I'd like to note that on Bunny's Tour Trough the Silver Millennium, you listed the DUB page with the Pieroll spelling. Check out the page for the ORIGINAL version on that site. You're the one who hates the dub so much. Again, this just shows me YOUR stupidity, because you can't even figure out the difference between a dub page and an original version page, Yes, well, I'm sure, as you've stated before, that both dubbies and subbies use 'Ptilol'. You claimed these sites to be 'very good' and 'reliable'. How reliable does it get when a site uses both 'Peirol' and 'Ptilol'? Those are not typos you know. Not twice in a row. The Alex Glover translations are pretty much the ONLY translations on the net. Layout isn't everything on a site - anyone stupid enough to believe that layout is the only thing making up a site needs a reality check. I know layout isn't everything. But it's not nothing either. Again, I question the 'very good' and 'reliable' parts of this site. Also, just because a site is hosted on geocities does not take away from its accuracy. As noted, that author also owns SailorDream.com, which, if I'm not mistaken, IS A DOMAIN. Hello. And if you'd look at that site, you'd see that she knows a hell of a lot more about Sailor Moon than you do. If that's so, then why the hell would that author build a site on Geocities, and not on a subdomain? The Sailor Moon Pocky Box is not a "crappy little fansite" - if you'd get your head out of your butt and look, you'd see that it is a review site, which is run by some of the best Sailor Moon webmasters - one of whom you decided was a good reference (owner of moonsenshi.org). So what's your point about owning a geocities site? She obviously knows a lot about Sailor Moon, and she also owns a domain. So are you saying that she's right on the domain, but wrong on geocities? That would fit your weird, twisted logic perfectly... First of all, careful who you're dealing the remarks here. I take fun in debating with pplz, but when it gets personal, don't forget who the staff members are. Second, where in the world did I say that that site was 'crappy' or 'little'? If you make your accusations, do it right. Third, if what you say here is true, then why the hell doesn't the author put up the 'Ptilol' thing on her domain? And if they did, why didn't you put it in your list of references? The other sites at the end, as stated, do not have info about Ptilol ON the site, but the owners agree that it is Ptilol. Don't believe me? Ask them. Maybe I will. So, out of 8 sites, 8 agree that Ptilol is accurate. Right. I think you're completely missing the point of what I said in my previous post. You clearly didn't even bother looking at most of those sites. These are the best Sailor Moon websites in the community. I'd LOVE to see you come up with 8 excellent Sailor Moon websites that say that Ptilol is wrong - but you can't. You'll never find them, because they don't exist. Again, I don't owe you anything. But, being the good sport I am, I'll do my best to find such sites. Again, these are all sites who have READ the manga, and are FAMILIAR with Japanese. They have SEEN the anime. Your complete lack of ANY information leads me to wonder if you've ever even heard of Sailor Moon. Ohw? Would you care to explain to me what Sailor Moon is about then?
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Post by Betty Ann on Jun 27, 2005 10:37:28 GMT -5
Yes, well, I'm sure, as you've stated before, that both dubbies and subbies use 'Ptilol'. You claimed these sites to be 'very good' and 'reliable'. How reliable does it get when a site uses both 'Peirol' and 'Ptilol'? Those are not typos you know. Not twice in a row. I've never said that the dub uses Ptilol. I DID say that the Mixx manga uses "Petit Roll," which you can look up for yourself if you can take time out of your busy schedule of trying to spread patently WRONG information. Further, read on that site about the Japanese original. It says PTILOL, and shows the romanization as well as Japanese script. I know layout isn't everything. But it's not nothing either. Again, I question the 'very good' and 'reliable' parts of this site. Well, show me YOUR direct translations of the manga. Are you questioning whether or not this person can translate Japanese?? If that's so, then why the hell would that author build a site on Geocities, and not on a subdomain? I'm not her, so I obviously don't know the answer to that question. Would you like to ask her yourself? Her email address is listed on both pages, and both pages clearly state that she is the author of both. Are you questioning whether or not she authored both pages? Because if you are, it's apparent that she did, so you really have no argument. oh, please do. Everyone who is well-versed in the manga and anime agrees that it is Ptilol. You, however, who hasn't even read all the manga (you said so yourself) and know next to nothing abut Japanese, are the only one who is sticking with Puchirol. Sort of in the way that scientists agree that the world is round, but some very uneducated people still believe it to be flat. Again, I don't owe you anything. But, being the good sport I am, I'll do my best to find such sites. I'll be eagerly awaiting those. I wonder why 'Elysion' doesn't approximate 'Illusion' (which is a Levenshtein distance of 3), when 'Puchiroll' does approximate 'Ptilol' (which is a Levenshtein distance of 8). In case you ask, Levenshtein is the distance between two words. Each letter added, substracted or replaced to turn one word into another adds 1 to the distance. Because "Elysion" is the word that is being approximated. "Elysion" can't approximate "Illusion" because "Elysion" itself is an approximation!! The direct romanization is "Eryushion," once again showing your lack of knowledge of either the series itself or of the Japanese language. Eryushion approximates Elysion in the same way that Puchiroll approximates Ptilol. So if you use Elysion, then you must use Ptilol, if you follow the same logic. Anyway, the Levenshtein system can't really apply in the case of romanizations and approximations. A foreign word can't be directly written in Japanese, and must be approximated with whatever characters are closest in the Japanese language. So the Levenshtein distance doesn't really matter - what matters is the word being approximated. The Levenshtein system doesn't always work anyway. Any person in his right mind will tell you that the following two sentences are the same, and are definitely related: Ice cream: chocolate and vanilla Ice cream: vanilla and chocolate The Levenshtein system, on the other hand, will tell you that those two phrases are extremely different, and have very little in common. So why use it? It only says that things which ARE related are not related. The Levenshtein argument holds no water.
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jenn
Scout In Training
Posts: 10
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Post by jenn on Jun 27, 2005 11:53:00 GMT -5
zyppora and betty, i've been quietly lurking on this thread for the last week or so since this discussion started up. i've been enjoying both sides of the argument, although i agree with betty that the proper spelling of ptilol should be... ptilol. however, this recent exchange has me itching to throw a few more arguments into the mix. i hope y'all will both forgive me for not being able to stay quiet.
first of all, thanks very much for mentioning my site amongst your list of respectable sites. i appreciate that a lot. ^_^
zyroppa, you said:
Given that the thrust of your argument is that puchiroll should be used because it is standard in the fandom, the responsibility actually is yours to justify that claim. beyond your words, you offer no substantial proof that if you started a thread on puchiroll, "we all know who puchiroll is". I for one would not -- before this thread, I had never heard of that version of ptilol's name. Therefore, if you suggest that everyone would know, it's up to you to find a way of backing up that claim.
Secondly, though Peruru is certainly more common a romanization than Perle, it simply isn't the most accurate. All the names used in the anime and manga are meaningful, while we don't ever know exactly what Ms. Takeuchi meant when she conceived of some names, I'm sure we can all agree that they are all meaningful -- i.e. she didn't pull them out of her ass. Prince Diamond (or Demando) refers to diamonds, Kaolinite (or whatever romanization of the Japanese pronounceation you want to use) refers to the mineral kaolinite, Beryl to beryl, Seraa Muun to Sailor Moon and so on and so forth. When trying to create a fansite not in the language of the original show, there are obviously going to be translation issues, but if we agree that all of Ms. Takeuchi's names are meaningful, and that we want to retain some semblance of her intended meaning in English, than we must pay respect to her intentions and translate accordingly to the word that she was using a double entendres or pun. We use Prince Diamond instead of Purinsu Demando, we use Kunzite instead of Kunsaito, etc... and for the sake of consistency, we should similarly treat Peruru as Perle and Puchirou as Ptilol. On the other hand, if we choose to disregard any semblance of meaning, we would have to treat all names accordingly and refer to Sailor Moon as Sera Muun, Cyprine as Suaipurino (or something), etc... Now, you could do that, but you would lose the signficance of the names in English because the names, spellt that way, are basically nonsensical.
The second issue with treating names only as direct romanizations of the Japanese spoken names without regard to meaning is that you encounter the exact same problem that was mentioned earlier in this thread. There are several systems of Japanese romanizations, and so spellings will differ. Nefurito or Nefulito? Puchirou or pieroll? If you use what we can conclude are Ms. Takeuchi's intended referrences or 'easter eggs' in her character names, it gives us a guideline for more consistent spelling throughout the fandom, which gets us closer to that clarity that both betty and zyppora want.
Finally, given the Japanese manga, it is inaccurate to maintain a romanized spelling of any word written in katakana if you are in an english language since katakana itself is used to approximate foreign words not actually IN the Japanese language. For example, in Japanese, the object "beer" is written and spoken "biru"... that's not a new word, that's actually the English word "beer" adopted for easier pronounceation for the Japanese language. They are actually saying the English word "beer". So, if we start talking in English, it would be inaccurate to start talking about "biru" because the word is actually "beer". Similarly, just because a name like Puchirou/Ptilol sounds like Puchirou in the anime or is written out in Japanese katakana, it doesn't necessarily mean we have to rely on the Japanese romanization if the manga is actually referring to a foreign word, in this case "ptilol". It would be more accurate to go to the actual word being approximated.
Regarding Geocities accounts -- Geocities, itself, is in no way a reference to a good or bad site. I've seen some great sites on Geocities and I've seen some crappy sites with their own domain. I've also seen great-looking sites with completely inaccurate and "I wouldn't believe anyone would write this if I didn't just see it for myself" information. The Dies Gaudii site happens to be my gold standard for accurate manga translation information (regardless of the difficulty I have navigating that site) because the webmaster does an excellent job presenting their arguments with compelling evidence from the manga, the Japanese language and grammatical rules, and even outside sources with bibliographic references. Few sites do that. My point is that just because a webmaster can't build a stunning layout doesn't mean that they can't do good research and debate accordingly. A domain doesn't necessarily mean a site is good -- it only means you have the money to throw at a domain registration, and not everyone is wealthy enough to invest in such a hobby.
Lastly, regarding the pocky box, again, I should think our layout has nothing to do with the quality of our reviews, and since I did design the current layout, have been a little disappointed by the overall dislike of it (not just from you but in general). Nonetheless, a new design is in the works and I hope you check back when it is finally unveiled.
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