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Post by Creshosk on Feb 24, 2007 4:10:17 GMT -5
It matters because it's no longer directly stated and therefore not canon. It was never directly stated before hand. But them being a couple had nothing to do with it being directly stated, and everything to do with their behavior. In one episode of the dub, Mina asks Amara if she and Michelle are an item and Amara says no. Michelle also talks about having dated a boy. Of course you could speculate that Amara was lying and Michelle was just unsure about her sexuality in the past, but that's fanon. It would certainly explain their continued behavior toward each other. Saying that they weren't lying is just as fannon. Truth is we don't know if she was lying or not... other tha the fact that actions speak louder than words. That's not what meant. I know the dub has made countless continuity errors. I'm talking about whether or not it was a mistake in itself to try to cover their relationship. We know after the fact that they did a sloppy job of it, but in theory would it have been all right if they had managed to convincingly portray them as "just friends"? Sure, why not? fact is that their slopiness means they failed, and made matters worse. I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on whether or not they should have made the changes. Personally I wish they had not changed it, just as I wish they had not made a lot of changes from the manga (ah... to have SuperS with outer senshi instead of dream mirrors...) But it's their prerogative. uh huh... The idea that that the dub is lying by calling them cousins is based on the idea that the Japanese version is the One True Version and all other adaptations are invalid. Nope. it has to do with how they act to each other. Just like it did in the other mediums. Whether or not you like the change or think that it's censorship, it's still dub canon. What? that they're not a couple? Nope that's fannon as well. Princess Serenity commits suicide in the manga. She does not in the anime. I could say that that's wrong, or argue that Serenity actually does stab herself in the anime, but it's just not shown. I could say that the anime made a mistake because they had Beryl kill Serenity instead. But most people would just say that the anime has a different storyline. uh huh.. this doesn't change the way they act toward one another. Which was the only indicator in the Sub/raw japanese. So those other examples are irrealavent. I can see your point that the change to Haruka and Michiru leans toward censorship, as opposed to the change in Zoisite and Kunzite which was just a plot variation. actually they were both censorship, and plot variations. Just one was rather sloppy censorship. But why does it matter whether they made the change due to moral objections or simply because they wanted it to be different? It doesn't. But it not mattering doesn't change what happened and the reasons behind it. Regardless of their motivations for making the change, it was made. Censorship is not the same as denial. Censorship is official. Right. the censorship is on the part of the dubbing company. The denial is on the part of the fans. Maybe this comes back to my unusually strict definition of "canon." I think Amara and Michelle are not a canon couple. and that would be fanon. You have no evidence that Michelle was telling the truth. But that still doesn't change their behavior. They are just a not not-canon couple, like Rei and Yuuichiro or Makoto and Ami. You wish. If Ami and Makotoor Rei and Yuuichiro acted toward each other the way that Amara and Michelle do they would be a couple. But since they don't act the same as Amara and Michelle its actually a stretch to compare the groups of characters. I wasn't trying to say that. Well that's what you said. I said it was not wrong to say that they are cousins in the dub. Of course not. Nor is it wrong to say that they are not lovers in the dub. That would be denial. On the flipside, you can't absolutely disprove that they aren't lovers in the dub The reasoning for them being lovers in the dub is the same as the sub. Are you saying they aren't lovers in the sub, since the evidence is the same? or that they aren't cousins in the original. Why would we think that they were? But again, that's speculation. Or so you'd like us to believe. I'll say it again, they act like lovers in the dub and the sub. There are no official declarations in either. To deny that they aere in either when the evidence is the same is denial. Again, just because they are cousins, doesn't mean that they are not lovers.
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Post by yumecosmos on Feb 24, 2007 14:56:53 GMT -5
How is a direct statement from the character fanon? When something is in the script, I assume it to be true unless it's stated later that it was a lie. I'm going to say the same thing I said about MinaxRei: burden of proof lies on the shippers.
The original makes it a lot more clear that Haruka and Michiru are lovers through dialogue. Lines like "I don't listen to that kind of talk outside of bed" make it pretty obvious. Since those lines are changed, and since Amara says there's nothing between them, and since the dub makes an effort to explain away their closeness by making them cousins, people have a valid basis for claiming that they aren't lovers in the dub.
If you're saying the dub censored Haruka and Michiru's relationship, isn't that pretty much admitting that they meant for them not to have one? If they are a couple in the dub, it wouldn't be censored any more than Serena and Darien were censored. You said yourself that they made them cousins to hide the relationship. That means it was the dub writers' intentions for them not to have one.
Please point out to me exactly where I said that they can't be lovers because they're cousins. They made them cousins to explain their closeness, not to make it so they couldn't be lovers. They did it because it's more believable for cousins to hold hands and have deep and meaningful conversations in a way that strangers or regular friends wouldn't.
Ok, so I think we were just talking past each other at this point because of my strict authoritarian stance placing the censors' pseudo-artistic intentions above the reality they were trying to cover. (In short, "this is how things are because the people in charge say so," which was pretty much my attitude toward all power structures at the time this was written.) I couldn't understand that fiction exists in the context of the real world, and so the concept of Michelle and Amara cannot be separated from the concept of Michiru and Haruka. Blinded by my privilege and selfishness, I couldn't understand why keeping Michiru and Haruka together as a couple, regardless of other changes to their characters, was so important.
To call the deliberately bigoted choice of the dubbing company to hide the nature of Michiru/Michelle and Haruka/Amara's relationship a "valid basis" for denying the existence of the healthy lesbian couple presented in the source material--because make no mistake, this is absolutely about denying that reality--is a spineless appeal to the status quo. Change only happens when people demand it.
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Post by Creshosk on Feb 25, 2007 15:35:26 GMT -5
How is a direct statement from the character fanon? When something is in the script, I assume it to be true unless it's stated later that it was a lie. I'm going to say the same thing I said about MinaxRei: burden of proof lies on the shippers. It has nothing to do with shippers. Characters lie. Its a plain and simple truth. And I'm sorry but until something is proven true I assume no stance. You want to prove that what she said was true then do so. Because just accepting whatever you are told makes you gullible. The original makes it a lot more clear that Haruka and Michiru are lovers through dialogue. Lines like "I don't listen to that kind of talk outside of bed" make it pretty obvious. Since those lines are changed, and since Amara says there's nothing between them, and since the dub makes an effort to explain away their closeness by making them cousins, people have a valid basis for claiming that they aren't lovers in the dub. False. I'm sorry but once again, actions speak louder than words. Especially when its obvious the words are intended to decive, and this is made obvious by an overzealousness. You still have no concrete proof that they are not lovers. If you're saying the dub censored Haruka and Michiru's relationship, isn't that pretty much admitting that they meant for them not to have one? so when pornographic pictures are cencored its obviously meant that the censored parts aren't meant to exist? Here's that denial thing again. Just because something is covered does not mean that it is not there, otherwise what is the opint of 'modesty'? If they are a couple in the dub, it wouldn't be censored any more than Serena and Darien were censored. You're really reaching here. Or are you saying that there is no homosexuality in america? Hey, its being censored in various children's cartoons! and censored things just don't exist. You said yourself that they made them cousins to hide the relationship. That means it was the dub writers' intentions for them not to have one. Just because something is hidden doesn't mean its not there. Please point out to me exactly where I said that they can't be lovers because they're cousins. I love when I catch a person with what they said and they ask me to prove what they said when the English labguage for all its flaws is still alot more intuitive than what is visable on the surface. This entire post I've responded to is a pretty damned good indicator of your position. They made them cousins to explain their closeness, Thank you. You just made a statment to the effect of what you wanted me to prove. Just because they are cousins does not mean that they are not lovers. Thank you for instantly invalidating yourself soI don't have to. not to make it so they couldn't be lovers. So you admit that the possibility remains. They did it because it's more believable for cousins to hold hands Which is bullshit. I don't hold hands with my cousins. Hell I don't hold hands with my siblings. I don't hold hands with anyone other than my significant other. Do you often hold hands with your cousin(s), sibling(s) or friend(s)? and have deep and meaningful conversations in a way that strangers or regular friends wouldn't. "that regular friends wouldn't." The only conversation that "regular friends wouldn't" is that which lovers have. As some friends talk about anything and everything including sex. So the only thing that "regular friends wouldn't is that which lovers would have. I'm sorry but once again, just because they're cousins doesn' t mean they're not lovers Ms. "They made them cousins to explain their closeness". And just because something is unseen doesn't mean its not there. afterall, air must not exist since you cant see it. Parts of people's anatomy must not exist because they are concealed. Its a childish naivety that follows "If I can't see them, they can't see me." because its "If I can't see it, it must not be there."
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Post by yumecosmos on Feb 25, 2007 19:36:06 GMT -5
All right, I know this probably sounds like a cop out. But today we had communion and I was trying to think about all the people I've wronged, and this came to mind. I've been stubborn and disrespectful and argumentative, and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I don't think I should continue this debate any longer because I'm going to say something I'll regret. So as of right now I am done talking about this. I don't think you understood what I was trying to say, and maybe I don't understand what you're saying either. But Sailor Moon is not real. I don't think it's worth hurting real people's feelings over a fictional cartoon series.
Thank goodness I finally shut up, because that last line was pretty much the only true thing I said here, even though it means the opposite of what I thought it did.
Lord, be patient with this sinner.
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Post by Creshosk on Feb 25, 2007 19:44:55 GMT -5
All right, I know this probably sounds like a cop out. But today we had communion and I was trying to think about all the people I've wronged, and this came to mind. I've been stubborn and disrespectful and argumentative, and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I don't think I should continue this debate any longer because I'm going to say something I'll regret. So as of right now I am done talking about this. I don't think you understood what I was trying to say, and maybe I don't understand what you're saying either. But Sailor Moon is not real. I don't think it's worth hurting real people's feelings over a fictional cartoon series. Erm.. Okay. I wasn't hurt in the slightest. These arguments don't even ever phase me as far as that goes. I also apologize if I offended you.
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Post by sailormoon99 on Dec 10, 2007 20:50:29 GMT -5
And they're NOT cousins (now THAT would be sick). In the English dub they are.....
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