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Post by Zyppora on Jan 2, 2007 8:28:46 GMT -5
Definition of anime: The term most popularly refers to animation originating in Japan. If you start being nitpicky over definitions, you could call Mickey Mouse an anime, but you and I both know that's an animation, and not anime. But we were talking about canon: This gives way to the dub not being canon on many points, and the sub to largely be canon on those points. Why? Because the sub resembles the manga very closely. Naturally, there are fillerup eps, but those are pretty much mandatory, considering a weekly anime based on a monthly manga. Why do I not consider the dub canon? Because the story revolves around a character named Serena, a non-canon character.
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 2, 2007 22:59:50 GMT -5
The original anime has many large differences from the manga. The endings of the fourth and fifth seasons were entirely different. Takeuchi-san noted several differences (notably the Starlights being guys) that she did not seem entirely pleased with. That doesn't make them non-canon. And what about the Myu? Beryl comes back and even becomes good in several versions of the Stars Myu. This is entirely contradictory to both manga and anime, but in the Myu world it's still canon.
The bit about Takeuchi-san not being happy about the Starlights is incorrect and rooted in transphobia. (She was surprised, but there's no indication she was upset.)
Serena is not a non-canon character just because you don't like that she's different from Usagi. DiC and Cloverway and Bandai and all of them hold/held the legal lisences to Sailor Moon. Quality is not the issue. It's not like they're bootlegs or ripoffs. They took the original, changed some things, and re-released it. That's the same thing all the other adaptations of Sailor Moon have done.
This argument from legality is tedious, and "quality" is indeed an issue when it means accurately portraying the wide spectrum of possible human relationships.
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 3, 2007 7:36:22 GMT -5
Yep. And in the Disney world, Mickey Mouse is canon. This is nothing but spreading FUD about the meaning of canon and the meaning thereof concerning the Sailor Moon anime and manga. Of course there are differences, as I pointed out earlier. The starlights being male is one. Does it make them non-canon? Perhaps. Depends on how strict you apply the word 'canon'. You could say the whole anime was non-canon, because it involves motion picture and sound, rather than paper pages and cover art.
I'd like to think that the original anime is canon, because it wasn't remade, but the 'first', based on the (original) manga. How could that be a wrong interpretation?
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 3, 2007 11:27:05 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's wrong. There are two different canons, one for the dub and one for the original. They aren't consistent with each other or the original manga, but there are pretty much consistent with themselves (name changes notwithstanding.) In dub canon, Michelle is not a lesbian because they said so in the TV series. Of course this does not hold true for any other version of the series, but in the dub world it's correct. I don't see how you can say that changing the media and some of the events does not make something non-canon, but changing the language and some of the events does.
Yeah, that's called queer erasure and it's not okay. I'm ashamed that I ever tried to defend it.
Zyppora was absolutely right, this whole argument about what canon is or isn't is an irrelevant smokescreen.
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 3, 2007 16:19:25 GMT -5
That's circular reasoning. A series is ALWAYS canon within its own universe. As I said, Mickey Mouse belongs in the Disney universe. Does that make him canon? Yes, but NOT to, for example, the Sailor Moon universe. Something can be canon to the dub, but not to the sub. Would it be considered canon in general? I think to answer that question, we'll need to define what the 'original' is. Is it the manga? That would make the relationship between Ziocite and Kunzite non-canon. Is it the anime? Then what about the movies? Is it the dub? I think not, as the dub is a twisted, crippled derivation of the anime.
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 3, 2007 22:43:18 GMT -5
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The dub is canon to itself. It's not the original, but neither is the Japanese anime. You may have your opinions about it, but believe it or not there are people who prefer the dub or are more accustomed to it. It's like, I don't like PGSM, but that doesn't mean I can say it's not canon just because it's totally different and came out ten years later. I don't see how you can say people are wrong for saying that Neptune isn't a lesbian and that they are cousins in the dub when that's true. Yes, a lot of people who have only seen the dub aren't aware of the other versions. Yes, I think they need to be made aware of the Japanese version because it's all-around better. But their claim is not entirely unfounded based on the version they've seen, so I don't think it's quite fair to accuse them of being in denial.
Ok, so maybe there may have been a few grains of truth in this, in that things don't become not canon because you don't like them *cough NaruHina coughcough*, but motivations matter. The anime didn't change the manga to cater to a bigoted audience.
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 4, 2007 14:22:09 GMT -5
I don't see how you can say people are wrong for saying that Neptune isn't a lesbian and that they are cousins in the dub when that's true. Yes, a lot of people who have only seen the dub aren't aware of the other versions. Yes, I think they need to be made aware of the Japanese version because it's all-around better. The problem I have is not that they're unaware. If one's a true Sailor Moon fan, then I'm pretty sure sooner or later they'll encounter the Jap anime. But the Jap anime being better than the dub is both subjective and not the point. What is the point, is that the sub is based off the Jap version and has been modified, giving a false impression. What it's trying to do, is create the same world (schoolgirl turns superhero, the whole shabang), but without some key points. Say, a copy of your ID that doesn't state (or falsely states an incorrect) DOB.
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 5, 2007 8:09:00 GMT -5
But again you're making it sound like the dub was illegal or unauthorized, which it wasn't. Every version of Sailor Moon after the original print of the Japanese manga has been modified to some extent. It's not deception, it's editing. Whether or not you think they were good edits is beside the point. And your date of birth is a fact that can't be changed. Sailor Moon is fiction. By saying that there is one "true" version you are implying that there is some universal truth of Sailor Moon, which isn't really possible given the vast differences between the other canons.
It is deception, because while Sailor Moon isn't real, gay people are. Representation matters.
The Shitennou being Endymion's guardians was a key point. They left that out of the anime. Seiya's crush on Usagi was a key point. They cut that in several of the musicals. The Ail and En arc was a key point, but it wasn't in the manga. Mamoru and Fiore was a key point, but that was only added in the movie which doesn't fit into any continuity. I don't see why Haruka and Michiru's relationship is so sacred, that fans get so defensive when people suggest that there might be a version where they aren't a couple. Why is it okay to change names but not gender? Why is it okay to eliminate four men's lifetime dedication to their master, but not two women's love for each other? Why is it okay to make Zoisite and Kunzite gay when they weren't originally, but not to make Haruka and Michiru straight when they weren't originally? For that matter, why is it okay to eliminate one couple's relationship but not another? Why is it okay to change a million other things, but not Haruka and Michiru?
Representation matters. It's okay to reinterpret a straight character as gay because there are straight people everywhere, and hetero love shoved in everyone's faces all the time. No straight person honestly feels marginalized or oppressed for who they love. No straight person goes into a TV show wondering if they'll see anybody like them. It's not okay to take away good portrayals of healthy relationships between people who don't always get to see their reality reflected in art, and give them to people who already get told by society that they're the norm.
Anyway, all that aside, I still think that Creshosk's comment back on page one ("Anybody who thinks that they are not lesbians is in serious denial...") was a little unfair. At worst, even if you say the dub is a bunch of lies, those people have been mislead. You can't be in denial of something you don't know.
No, no, no. That's not an excuse to remain in willful ignorance when something has been pointed out to you.
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 5, 2007 11:42:40 GMT -5
You say people who have seen the dub, have been mislead. But that's exactly the point I'm tryin to make: misleading involves false information. The question at hand is: which information is true. You point out several examples, but then stray again by defending the dub. I assume you're aware of the fact that the NA dub is clearly not the only dub out there, and even the Jap version could be considered a dub of sorts (namely, adaptation to a different audience). I consider the manga to be the original, to be canon. I lack the interest in reading however, and as such turn to the Jap version of the anime. Why? Because it is the closest thing to the canon story. Does that make it canon? On multiple points.
I'd like to consider a 'key point', an event or character that cannot be taken out of the story, without horribly deforming it. As the anime proves, such is not the case with the Shitennou. I do agree however, that it would have been better if they had been left in.
Taking the Jap version of the anime as a reference, I consider the musicals a step away from the manga, and as such 'less canon'. Besides that, the fact that you used the word 'several', indicates variety amongst versions, which implies non-canon features.
Again, that's a matter of the definition of 'key point'. Apparently, the manga was fine without them. On a sidenote, I have a feeling you're using the word 'canon' too strictly and the words 'key point' too loosely.
See previous comment.
The fact that there's a version out there that doesn't feature them is the least of my aggravators. What bugs me, is that pplz start making websites such as SOS and spread this information as if it came right from the source: Naoko Takeuchi. What bugs me more, is that such websites become popular and start ruling the niche. And what bugs me most, is that fans of such websites start coming here and tell me about how it "REALLY" is: they're not lesbians, they're cousins.
Where did I state the changing of names was not an issue? In fact, I believe my 4th post above this one claims the dub to be less canon simply because they changed Usagi's name.
Why would it be okay to both eliminate four men's lifetime dedication to their master, AND two women's love for each other?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify the Jap version for their changes, but it just gets to me that fangurls start swarming the niche/forum and claim the dub to be true, 'just because the Jap version couldn't be true, because Haruka and Michiru are cousins and to claim them to be lesbians is just sick'.
Again, why would it be okay to make Zoicite a woman when he wasn't originally, AND to make Haruka and Michiru cousins when they weren't originally?
The one mistake of the Jap version does not justify the two mistakes of the NA version.
It is not. But it's better than eliminating both relationships.
It is not. Why would it be okay to change a million plus one things, as opposed to leaving the one thing alone?
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 5, 2007 17:04:40 GMT -5
I said that at worst, if you're going to insist the dub is "wrong", those people were mislead, not in denial. But I don't think the dub is wrong. There's no wrong, there's not mistakes, there's no need to defend or justify anything. The translators made deliberate changes and produced a new version of the story, which as I've said before is the same thing every other adaptation has done. It's not like the anime director said "haha, I'm going to trick all these fans into thinking Zoisite and Kunzite are lovers even though they aren't!" Neither did the dub writers say "haha, we're going to trick all the fans into thinking Haruka and Michiru are cousins even though they're really lovers!" They just changed it because they wanted it to be different.
This is absolutely bogus and hypocritical. They did not just "want it to be different." They wanted to make money from advertising and 90's soccer moms would have raised a stink if a lesbian couple appeared in a children's TV show on prime time. Rather than challenge the social order, they caved.
On a side note, the Japanese anime made several name changes. Sailor Chibichibi became Sailor Chibichibi Moon, "Silver Moon Crystal Power Make Up" became "Moon Eternal Make Up", the other senshi got a Super added on to their title...
Your definition of key point seems to be based on your opinions, since you're subjectively deciding what constitues "horribly deforming" the story.
To compare these petty tidbits to the denial of an individual's humanity is disgraceful. Shame on me.
I am not saying that the anime version was wrong for making changes. I'm saying it's a double standard to say the NA dub is not canon because it made changes, but the anime is canon even thought it also made changes. I think it should be okay to say that Haruka and Michiru are lovers or that Amara and Michelle are cousins or that Zoisite and Kunzite are gay or that Zoysite is a woman. Yes, the person who posted saying that they were never lovers was mistaken. But aren't you doing the same thing if you respond that they're completely wrong and this is the way it is?
False equivalency. This is the tired old "if you're angry at your oppressors you're just as bad as them" argument that privileged people always make because they think their "right" to spew vitirol without any social consequences is as important as someone else's right to live. Ideas and ideologies grounded in hatred don't deserve to be given a platform. The fandom was and is fully aware of the reason behind Cloverway's attempt to portray Amara and Michelle as cousins, and it's not something we should tolerate on the (totally disingenuous) grounds of artistic choice.
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 8, 2007 10:06:38 GMT -5
I said that at worst, if you're going to insist the dub is "wrong", those people were mislead, not in denial. But I don't think the dub is wrong. There's no wrong, there's not mistakes, there's no need to defend or justify anything. The translators made deliberate changes and produced a new version of the story, which as I've said before is the same thing every other adaptation has done. It's not like the anime director said "haha, I'm going to trick all these fans into thinking Zoisite and Kunzite are lovers even though they aren't!" Neither did the dub writers say "haha, we're going to trick all the fans into thinking Haruka and Michiru are cousins even though they're really lovers!" They just changed it because they wanted it to be different. Exactly Question: What was the Japanese version's source? What's it based on? Easy one, right? The manga. It's much like you take a (facts-wise) bad-quality copying machine and copy the manga into an anime. Some things change, other things are left the same. Another question: What was the dub version's source? What's that based on? Nope, it's not the manga. I think it's pretty safe to say that the dub's source was the Japanese version of the anime. Why? Because of Zoicite. If the dubbers had chosen the manga to be their source, they wouldn't have to turn her into a girl, because there was never a relationship between him and Kunzite there. So we take the bad-quality copying machine again, put the (Jap version anime) copy and have it copy out the dub. A copy of a copy. I'm sure you've tried it and saw the results of performing such a repetitive action. More flaws pop up. Quality goes down. You wanna know what I think? I think the NA version would have done better, had they created it from the manga (and I'm not referring to Saban's PoS). Why did they base their dub on the anime? On a side note, the Japanese anime made several name changes. Sailor Chibichibi became Sailor Chibichibi Moon, "Silver Moon Crystal Power Make Up" became "Moon Eternal Make Up", the other senshi got a Super added on to their title... I know the anime isn't perfect. I never claimed it to be. I am using it as my source though, together with what I've read from the manga. I've already stated my reasons for doing so, too. The Japanese anime, however, left the names of the girls intact. Why is this significant? Because they have meaning: Tsukino Usagi means Rabbit of the Moon, etc. I can see why one would choose the name 'Serena' for someone who's destined to become Queen Serenity, but Darien? Or Amarra? Your definition of key point seems to be based on your opinions, since you're subjectively deciding what constitues "horribly deforming" the story. I admit that 'horribly deforming' would be considered rather subjective. How would you define the term 'key point'? I am not saying that the anime version was wrong for making changes. I'm saying it's a double standard to say the NA dub is not canon because it made changes, but the anime is canon even thought it also made changes. I think it should be okay to say that Haruka and Michiru are lovers or that Amara and Michelle are cousins or that Zoisite and Kunzite are gay or that Zoysite is a woman. Yes, the person who posted saying that they were never lovers was mistaken. But aren't you doing the same thing if you respond that they're completely wrong and this is the way it is? I guess I was. Talking to you taught me lots. I guess my opinion should be altered to something like 'the dub is less canon than the Japanese version'. But yea, the Jap version is the only version I ever saw, I've read parts of the manga, and taking the anime as a reference point, it's hard to see the flaws sometimes ^_^;;
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 8, 2007 13:31:36 GMT -5
I think they based the dub on the anime because that's where the visuals come from. I mean, it would be sort of hard to follow the manga storyline when the events became completely different.
Of course, it got kind of funny when they went on and changed the dialogue anyway, and then it completely doesn't match with the visuals. Like in the French dub which made Zoisite and Kunzite brothers. This is more similar to their manga relationship (iirc the materials collection says that Zoisite is "treated as Kunzite's younger brother" although this was probably in a more symbolic sense), but I hear a lot of the French audience thought they were in an incestuous relationship -_-;
I won't disagree that the dub was way off of manga and anime canon. I'd say the Japanese anime was more true to the manga than the dub was to the anime. (Although I think the dub was still closer than PGSM. @_@ Nothin against the live action, but it ended up way different.) So yeah, if you believe in one canon I can see how you'd say the dub is not it. I just don't bother to even try to reconcile the events since they're so different anyway. Let's just let the dub have its own little world.
I cannot account for my irrational hatred of PGSM.
But to reiterate, we do need to actively reject and combat the false portrayal of Haruka and Michiru put forth by the dub because straightwashing causes real-world harm.
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Post by Creshosk on Feb 15, 2007 5:01:35 GMT -5
I said that at worst, if you're going to insist the dub is "wrong", those people were mislead, not in denial. Wrong. People still insist that they are not, even in the dub all they did was make it worse by making them cousins as well. They still have the same manerisms and body language, what does it matter if the dialouge has been changed? I know alot of people go "Oh well they're cousins so obviously they're not an item. Need I remind you that all that does is add a layer of incest. But I don't think the dub is wrong. There's no wrong, there's not mistakes, there's no need to defend or justify anything. Of course there are mistakes. they got over zealous in trying to hide the relationship that they screwed up on the dialouge of quite a few episodes. Like in the one where Uranus is chained to Moon and they are seperated form Neptune and forced to retreat. In a secluded area Moon says "We need to go back and rescue your cousin!" When its still quite a few episodes before they reveal to each other who the other is. No mistakes indeed. The translators made deliberate changes and produced a new version of the story, which as I've said before is the same thing every other adaptation has done. It's not like the anime director said "haha, I'm going to trick all these fans into thinking Zoisite and Kunzite are lovers even though they aren't!" Neither did the dub writers say "haha, we're going to trick all the fans into thinking Haruka and Michiru are cousins even though they're really lovers!" Actually they very much made them cousins with the sole intent of hiding the relationship. It's ludicrous to think otherwise. They just changed it because they wanted it to be different. They changed it to censor it. Like much of the other edits they made, dropping episodes cutting out scenes. It's almost like you're saying there is no such thing as censorship. Oh well we blured out the face here on this person to make a new version, it has nothing to do with protecting her identity. Well we bleep out the swearing on this show over here because its new and interesting, it has nothing to do with the FCC guidelines of decency... On a side note, the Japanese anime made several name changes. Sailor Chibichibi became Sailor Chibichibi Moon, "Silver Moon Crystal Power Make Up" became "Moon Eternal Make Up", the other senshi got a Super added on to their title... Your definition of key point seems to be based on your opinions, since you're subjectively deciding what constitues "horribly deforming" the story. "horribly deforming" doesn't exist as its all a matter of precpective as to what would be horribley deformed. I am not saying that the anime version was wrong for making changes. I'm saying it's a double standard to say the NA dub is not canon because it made changes, but the anime is canon even thought it also made changes. Indeed. There are multiple different continuity each with their own canon. in fact anything that is canon to one universe will be non cannon to every other universe. Period. However this still doesn't change the fact of the matter. I think it should be okay to say that Haruka and Michiru are lovers or that Amara and Michelle are cousins or that Zoisite and Kunzite are gay or that Zoysite is a woman. Yes, the person who posted saying that they were never lovers was mistaken. But aren't you doing the same thing if you respond that they're completely wrong and this is the way it is? No in the slightest. As I said earlier masking something doesn't make it go away. They still have the same mannerisms and body language. Saying they're not lovers because they're cousins... well that's just silly. Incest exists in anime as much as anything else. Just look at Angel Sanctuary. One of the main themes IS incest, its a rather vital point to the story. So I'll say again. Anybody who says they're not is in denial.
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Post by Creshosk on Feb 15, 2007 5:57:12 GMT -5
Well, I'm not sure where else to put this so I decided to share thios here. Here are some people who were married to their cousins. Tell me if you recognize a name or two:
Johann Sebastian Bach, a famous composer had seven children with his second cousin. Incest is usually looked down upon due to the genetic dangers it poses, ironically Charles Darwin had ten kids with his first cousin. Marrying into the family must have really run well in Albert Einstien's family since he was married to someone who was both a first cousin through his mother and a second cousin through his father. Heck its possible to be cousins and not know it, just ask Rudy Giuliani, he was married to his second cousin for fourteen years before they found out. Jerry Lewis was married to his first cousin. Edgar Allen Poe, first cousin. The founder of Islam was married to his cousin. Alot of people make jokes about other countries rulers marrying their cousins, which they did alot. How ever its a concept not quite so foreign as FDR was married to his fifth cousin. Another famous author H.G Wells was, like Poe, married to his first cousin. Two signers of the declaration of independence were married to their cousins, one a first, the other a second.
So then, you can't say that just because they're cousins means they're not a couple. For as you can see some famous people would disagree with you. not that I'm asking them, I'm just using examples of it happening.
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Post by yumecosmos on Feb 23, 2007 15:44:53 GMT -5
Wrong. People still insist that they are not, even in the dub all they did was make it worse by making them cousins as well. They still have the same manerisms and body language, what does it matter if the dialouge has been changed? I know alot of people go "Oh well they're cousins so obviously they're not an item. Need I remind you that all that does is add a layer of incest. It matters because it's no longer directly stated and therefore not canon. In one episode of the dub, Mina asks Amara if she and Michelle are an item and Amara says no. Michelle also talks about having dated a boy. Of course you could speculate that Amara was lying and Michelle was just unsure about her sexuality in the past, but that's fanon. Wow, I was just... missing the point all around. Of course there are mistakes. they got over zealous in trying to hide the relationship that they screwed up on the dialouge of quite a few episodes. Like in the one where Uranus is chained to Moon and they are seperated form Neptune and forced to retreat. In a secluded area Moon says "We need to go back and rescue your cousin!" When its still quite a few episodes before they reveal to each other who the other is. No mistakes indeed. That's not what meant. I know the dub has made countless continuity errors. I'm talking about whether or not it was a mistake in itself to try to cover their relationship. We know after the fact that they did a sloppy job of it, but in theory would it have been all right if they had managed to convincingly portray them as "just friends"?
I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on whether or not they should have made the changes. Personally I wish they had not changed it, just as I wish they had not made a lot of changes from the manga (ah... to have SuperS with outer senshi instead of dream mirrors...) But it's their prerogative. Of course it was a mistake! Morality isn't a corporate prerogative! Actually they very much made them cousins with the sole intent of hiding the relationship. It's ludicrous to think otherwise. They changed it to censor it. Like much of the other edits they made, dropping episodes cutting out scenes. It's almost like you're saying there is no such thing as censorship. Oh well we blured out the face here on this person to make a new version, it has nothing to do with protecting her identity. Well we bleep out the swearing on this show over here because its new and interesting, it has nothing to do with the FCC guidelines of decency... The idea that that the dub is lying by calling them cousins is based on the idea that the Japanese version is the One True Version and all other adaptations are invalid. Whether or not you like the change or think that it's censorship, it's still dub canon. Princess Serenity commits suicide in the manga. She does not in the anime. I could say that that's wrong, or argue that Serenity actually does stab herself in the anime, but it's just not shown. I could say that the anime made a mistake because they had Beryl kill Serenity instead. But most people would just say that the anime has a different storyline.Again, continuing to insist that this was an adaptation and that the only reason to object to the change was that he "doesn't like it." Rude, dismissive, and utterly lacking in compassion. I can see your point that the change to Haruka and Michiru leans toward censorship, as opposed to the change in Zoisite and Kunzite which was just a plot variation. But why does it matter whether they made the change due to moral objections or simply because they wanted it to be different? Regardless of their motivations for making the change, it was made. Censorship is not the same as denial. Censorship is official.That's something a literal Nazi would say.Maybe this comes back to my unusually strict definition of "canon." I think Amara and Michelle are not a canon couple. They are just a not not-canon couple, like Rei and Yuuichiro or Makoto and Ami.I have nothing to say for myself here except Creshosk was absolutely right about everything. So then, you can't say that just because they're cousins means they're not a couple. I wasn't trying to say that. I said it was not wrong to say that they are cousins in the dub. Nor is it wrong to say that they are not lovers in the dub. On the flipside, you can't absolutely disprove that they aren't lovers in the dub or that they aren't cousins in the original. But again, that's speculation.The idea that adherence to some hackneyed notion of corporate-sponsored "canon" is as good a standard of right and wrong as actually upholding human rights is morally bankrupt and disgusting.
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