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Post by Zyppora on Sept 7, 2007 14:31:33 GMT -5
This is exactly the point I'm getting at. The two of them are being treated as more of a symbol than a couple. I kind of wish they were shown fighting more often, because couples develop a lot more through having a fight and reconciling than they do by getting along all the time. But they aren't at the center of the story, so we don't see them in that kind of depth. The real question is: do we need to see them in that kind of depth? I think a side-effect of their perfect relationship is contrast to Usagi and Mamoru's bumpy one. I think it was intended to be an example: 'this is the perfect relationship, here you have a sucky one, see if you can improve it'. I realize that noone has a rock solid and perfect relationship like the kind Haruka and Michiru have. It should be regarded as something to strive for, rather than something to expect, or take for granted. The irony is that Haruka and Michiru never face any homophobia in the canon series. Their relationship has always been accepted and even admired by the other characters. And yet in fanon, they have been made champions of an issue that the characters themselves never confronted. I compared them to Luna and Artemis representing "feline reproductive rights" as an illustration of how the two of them have come to represent a cause. Although now I'm getting an amusing image of Artemis confronting Bob Barker... XD Well naturally they haven't faced homophobia since homosexuality is generally accepted in Japan. Knowing the origins and settings of the series are Japan in and of itself, I would have considered it to be, well, not exactly weird, but definately curious if there was a significant amount of homophobia involved. And I see where you're coming from with the Luna and Artemis representing 'feline reproductive rights', but that still leaves the fact that feline reproductive rights are generally accepted in all cultures and religions. So I don't really think one could speak of a 'cause' to represent in that light. |
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Post by yumecosmos on Sept 7, 2007 22:36:15 GMT -5
I don't know if homosexuality is "generally accepted" in Japan. I got the impression it's more of a don't-ask-don't-tell kind of thing. As long as you get married and produce your one son to carry on the family name, nobody cares what you do in the bedroom. But still, the Japanese language has its own set of anti-gay slurs. Anime is just a little less politically correct than American cartoons.
On the contrary, it's generally accepted around her that cats should be neutered because they're getting overpopulated. Which honestly, I don't disagree with. Sorry, Artemis.
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 8, 2007 5:03:40 GMT -5
I don't know if homosexuality is "generally accepted" in Japan. I got the impression it's more of a don't-ask-don't-tell kind of thing. As long as you get married and produce your one son to carry on the family name, nobody cares what you do in the bedroom. But still, the Japanese language has its own set of anti-gay slurs. Anime is just a little less politically correct than American cartoons. Homophobia was never a problem in the series at least. And I'm sure every country and culture has its own set of anti-gay thoughts. They're just more political in some countries. On the contrary, it's generally accepted around her that cats should be neutered because they're getting overpopulated. Which honestly, I don't disagree with. Sorry, Artemis. As far as I know, that only happens to domestic cats, in which the owners agree to have the cat fixed. Going on that tangent, overpopulation isn't just a cat problem  Wouldn't that mean we should encourage homosexuality? Or at least not try to blacklist it? |
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Post by yumecosmos on Sept 10, 2007 0:02:55 GMT -5
I'm not trying to blacklist anything. I'm just a little put off by crazed fans who try to censor any pairing that isn't HarukaxMichiru. Fans ought to be free to support whatever couple they want, realistic or not. (Just don't try to call it canon...)
I still think it's hypocrisy to say that it's okay to break up Usagi and Mamoru, who are the center of the whole series, but it's not okay to break up Haruka and Michiru. If you truly think that homosexual couples should be equal to hetero couples, then their relationship should be no big deal. It should be treated just like every other couple's. By giving them special status, their "supporters" are prolonging the inequality.
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 10, 2007 5:54:08 GMT -5
I'm not trying to blacklist anything. I'm just a little put off by crazed fans who try to censor any pairing that isn't HarukaxMichiru. Fans ought to be free to support whatever couple they want, realistic or not. (Just don't try to call it canon...) Naturally everyone should be free to support their favorite couple. However to call it censoring when one doesn't agree with someone else's fav couple is a bit of an overreaction. Now if the person disliking the couple had some sort of (admin/mod) powers and started deleting everything with the disliked couple in it, that would be censoring. But expressing one's discontentment over a matter is completely allowed  (in most countries). I still think it's hypocrisy to say that it's okay to break up Usagi and Mamoru, who are the center of the whole series, but it's not okay to break up Haruka and Michiru. Hypocrisy or not, I'm sure you understand the reason for their behaviour. Needless to say, if they were truly consistently hypocritical considering the concept, rather than the couple, wouldn't they also be opposing the breaking up of Kunzite and Zoicite? As it's really the same matter. It's true when you say that Haruka and Michiru have a 'status aparte' amongst many fans, but I get the feeling you're trying to prove how 'wrong' it is for someone to indulge in keeping them together, when it's really a matter of taste (and of course the reasons I listed in earlier posts). If you truly think that homosexual couples should be equal to hetero couples, then their relationship should be no big deal. It should be treated just like every other couple's. By giving them special status, their "supporters" are prolonging the inequality. Rather than expressing indifference concerning the concept, I think it's a good thing that there's some counterweight to the mainstream 'homosexuality is a sin' mindset. Haruka and Michiru function as a perfect example and an icon of this counterweight. |
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Post by yumecosmos on Sept 10, 2007 10:11:33 GMT -5
All right, maybe "censorship" is a bit extreme, but it's certainly a double standard.
Lots of people do oppose breaking up Kunzite and Zoisite, for the same reasons. The only reason other pairings exist for those two is that they weren't in the original manga and there is some evidence (however vague) for other pairings, like AmixKunzite in PGSM or the infamous AmixZoi picture in the artbook.
Where did I say it was wrong to keep them together? I said they should be treated just like any other couple and not given some kind of special protection. Of course a MichiruxMamoru pairing is AU, but why is it so horribly wrong? (Please answer that question without any mindless Mamoru-bashing.) And don't say it's because Michiru is not bisexual. If it's okay to change Makoto's canon sexual preference to pair her with Ami, it's okay to change Michiru's.
To say that Haruka and Michiru are an icon cheapens their characters and their relationship. It makes it seem as though they have to stay together because of what they represent, not because they're right for each other. "Homosexuality is a sin" is hardly the mainstream mindset on this board or among anime fans and japanophiles in general. Even most right-wing groups that oppose gay marriage do so on an economic basis. (I, for one, think we ought to abolish tax breaks for married couples. That would solve the whole issue.) I find it odd that so many fans perceive that the majority is against them, when in fact tolerance and political correctness is the mainstream mindset.
Michiru and Haruka are not a counterweight. They are two fictional people who love each other. I wish everyone would defend the pairing with reasons they are right for each other rather than "you can' t break them up because they're lesbians."
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 10, 2007 12:27:11 GMT -5
All right, maybe "censorship" is a bit extreme, but it's certainly a double standard. Agreed. Lots of people do oppose breaking up Kunzite and Zoisite, for the same reasons. The only reason other pairings exist for those two is that they weren't in the original manga and there is some evidence (however vague) for other pairings, like AmixKunzite in PGSM or the infamous AmixZoi picture in the artbook. You mean Ami-Nephrite in PGSM? And to be perfectly honest with you, I think out of the Shitennou in PGSM Nephrite would have been the ONLY one I would have tolerated being in a relationship with Ami from. Why? Because contrary to any of the other Shitennou, he actually looked good. But yes, I regard the Ami-Zoi image blasphemous *eats it* Where did I say it was wrong to keep them together? I said they should be treated just like any other couple and not given some kind of special protection. Of course a MichiruxMamoru pairing is AU, but why is it so horribly wrong? (Please answer that question without any mindless Mamoru-bashing.) And don't say it's because Michiru is not bisexual. If it's okay to change Makoto's canon sexual preference to pair her with Ami, it's okay to change Michiru's. Michiru-Mamoru wouldn't work out. They're both aloof, educated people, but there's no catalyzer. That's also the reason why Ami-Mamoru wouldn't work. Michiru-Ami might, but only because they seem competitive towards each other (see the swimming ep). I would have put Setsuna in the same line if it weren't for her being as mysterious as she is. Besides that, there's a lot Michiru, Ami and Mamoru could learn not only of the past and the future, but also the mechanics of time itself. For the rest, I could see Michiru linking with any of the other Senshi (sans Chibi-usa and Hotaru, for obvious reasons), had she not met Haruka. To say that Haruka and Michiru are an icon cheapens their characters and their relationship. It makes it seem as though they have to stay together because of what they represent, not because they're right for each other. No, that's reading too much into it. Should they ever break up, then there's no way anyone would be able to stop them. The probability of them actually breaking up is very low though, almost nonexistant, if you consider the number of hardships they've been through. Even when Galaxia 'brainwashed' them and turned them against the other Senshi, they stuck together. "Homosexuality is a sin" is hardly the mainstream mindset on this board or among anime fans and japanophiles in general. I was of course talking about the global population, rather than the population of this board or the anime community. Next to that, I see a positive trend in accepting homosexuality all over the world (except third-world/highly religious countries), so that's kind of invalidating my point as well, but I won't mourn that Even most right-wing groups that oppose gay marriage do so on an economic basis. (I, for one, think we ought to abolish tax breaks for married couples. That would solve the whole issue.) Heh, guess again. At first the reason was to preserve the human race by encouraging offspring. Then it became an economic/political thing and when that's over, it'll be something else. Religions have a tendency to stick to the middle ages when it comes to their intellectual heritage. I find it odd that so many fans perceive that the majority is against them, when in fact tolerance and political correctness is the mainstream mindset. Michiru and Haruka are not a counterweight. They are two fictional people who love each other. I wish everyone would defend the pairing with reasons they are right for each other rather than "you can' t break them up because they're lesbians." ... well yea, I've been trying to say they're right for each other half this topic. Those who defiled that are the ones that had the biggest influence on the whole franchise, which caused this issue in the first place. |
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Post by yumecosmos on Sept 10, 2007 23:19:27 GMT -5
Sorry to say, but I don't think the majority of the global population has even heard of Sailor Moon, let alone cares about who Michiru goes out with. So in any case, you're kind of preaching to the choir.
When I talk about Haruka and Michiru "breaking up" I'm talking about fan speculation and imagination. The manga and anime are over; the canon is closed as far as I'm concerned. Haruka and Michiru have never broken up and never will in canon. Just like Ami and Makoto have never become a couple. But I don't see why anyone should get angry over people imagining the prospect of them with someone else. If the title of this topic had been "Should Rei go out with a guy or a girl?" or even "Should Kunzite go out with a guy or a girl?" I doubt so many people would have reacted that way.
Right wing =/= religion. Christian groups object based on several passages in the Bible that specifically prohibit homosexuality. Politicians, on the other hand, object because they don't want to give gay couples tax breaks. I've never heard any political figure talk about preserving the human race, but then again I don't listen to them that much... maybe that was the cover story at some point, but in the end you know politicians are all about money. And really, do you have to bash my faith every chance you get? We have certain things that we believe are wrong, just as you do. Just because we disagree with you doesn't make us all idiots.
I don't think Michiru/Ami would work... Rivalry does not equal attraction; that's the justification for the awful, awful Seiya/Haruka pairing. (Haha! You thought I'd get through this topic without taking a stab at S/H?) I can't say I see Michiru/Usagi working either--Usagi would be too starstruck and Michiru wouldn't be able to look at her on an equal level--but Michiru/Minako and Michiru/Rei certainly have their appeal.
"Homosexuality is not a sin!!" is not a reason why Haruka and Michiru are right for each other. A reason they are right for each other would be more along the lines of "Haruka's courage and brash idealism complement Michiru's quiet intellect and fierce loyalty to those she loves. They are both intelligent and accomplished, and share many of the same ideals. They also have a bond of understanding as sailor soldiers that few others can share."
I wish people would talk about character traits that make them good for each other, instead of just falling back on gay rights as a justification. I read through this topic and I've yet to see one person provide a reason based on their personalities.
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 11, 2007 6:12:58 GMT -5
Sorry to say, but I don't think the majority of the global population has even heard of Sailor Moon, let alone cares about who Michiru goes out with. So in any case, you're kind of preaching to the choir. I was talking about the general population and their views on homosexuality, rather than their views on any particular anime/manga. When I talk about Haruka and Michiru "breaking up" I'm talking about fan speculation and imagination. The manga and anime are over; the canon is closed as far as I'm concerned. Haruka and Michiru have never broken up and never will in canon. Just like Ami and Makoto have never become a couple. But I don't see why anyone should get angry over people imagining the prospect of them with someone else. If the title of this topic had been "Should Rei go out with a guy or a girl?" or even "Should Kunzite go out with a guy or a girl?" I doubt so many people would have reacted that way. Question: if Haruka and Michiru had been a guy-girl couple that became a cousin couple because of supposed intimacy, do you think those many people would have reacted the same way? I think they would have. This doesn't concern the fact that they're lesbians, even though that instigated the reason the reactions are as intense as they are. Right wing =/= religion. Christian groups object based on several passages in the Bible that specifically prohibit homosexuality. Politicians, on the other hand, object because they don't want to give gay couples tax breaks. I've never heard any political figure talk about preserving the human race, but then again I don't listen to them that much... maybe that was the cover story at some point, but in the end you know politicians are all about money. And really, do you have to bash my faith every chance you get? We have certain things that we believe are wrong, just as you do. Just because we disagree with you doesn't make us all idiots. Right. Where did I say the word 'idiot'? Or even implied it? Might I remind you that the middle ages held many geniuses? And might I also inform you of the fact that the bible states homosexuality is a sin because of certain reasons? Do you understand these reasons, rather than just copy them like a good little indoctrinated believer? The bible also states that the earth is flat, that the sun revolves around it and that snakes can talk. Besides that, the bible implies that gaining knowledge is a sin. Seriously, how am I supposed to regard such doctrine? I don't think Michiru/Ami would work... Rivalry does not equal attraction; that's the justification for the awful, awful Seiya/Haruka pairing. (Haha! You thought I'd get through this topic without taking a stab at S/H?) I can't say I see Michiru/Usagi working either--Usagi would be too starstruck and Michiru wouldn't be able to look at her on an equal level--but Michiru/Minako and Michiru/Rei certainly have their appeal. Heh, S-H is more like a mutual dislike, rather than rivalry. But agreed. "Homosexuality is not a sin!!" is not a reason why Haruka and Michiru are right for each other. A reason they are right for each other would be more along the lines of "Haruka's courage and brash idealism complement Michiru's quiet intellect and fierce loyalty to those she loves. They are both intelligent and accomplished, and share many of the same ideals. They also have a bond of understanding as sailor soldiers that few others can share." I wish people would talk about character traits that make them good for each other, instead of just falling back on gay rights as a justification. I read through this topic and I've yet to see one person provide a reason based on their personalities. I'm not going to debate on what the definition of reasoning for 'being right for each other' should be, because frankly, that would imply that there's a universal requirement (or set of requirements) which couples should meet in order to match to each other. Love can't be defined like that. You can name all the reasons why Haruka and Michiru are right for each other, but none of them could ever justify their love, simply because that would mean those reasons are the reason for their love in the first place. It's much like you're saying they're right for each other -because- they have a bond as Sailor Senshi (me and my gf do not), -because- they're both intelligent and accomplished (Usagi-Mamoru anyone?), or -because- they complement each other (I think this would scrap a lot of relationships across the world). You're implying that without those traits, they wouldn't be right for each other. Just like they wouldn't be right for each other -because- they're lesbians, or -because- they're cousins in a different version of the series. It simply doesn't matter because those reasons are irrelevant from an in-character point of view. The only reason these arguments are used is because there are those who deny their being 'right for each other' even after learning of the orginal, or because they tend to break them up for fanon purposes. Consider it this way: a person creates a fanfiction that depicts Usagi as a genius and Ami as a bubble brain. What would you think? |
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Post by phobesgirl19 on Sept 11, 2007 11:10:08 GMT -5
I am not generally a fan of shoujo-ai. I do not believe homosexuality is right. However, Haruka and Michiru are a canon couple, and I think you gotta respect the creator's intentions! I don't think fans should pretend they're not a couple just because they don't like the idea of two girls together. So I guess I am a Haru/Michi supporter ^_^ i agree with yumecosmos |
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Post by yumecosmos on Sept 11, 2007 12:36:06 GMT -5
Right. Where did I say the word 'idiot'? Or even implied it? Might I remind you that the middle ages held many geniuses? And might I also inform you of the fact that the bible states homosexuality is a sin because of certain reasons? Do you understand these reasons, rather than just copy them like a good little indoctrinated believer? The bible also states that the earth is flat, that the sun revolves around it and that snakes can talk. Besides that, the bible implies that gaining knowledge is a sin. Seriously, how am I supposed to regard such doctrine? -_-;;; The Bible does not say any of those things. There is one instance of a snake talking, and it wasn't a real snake, per se, it was the devil in the form of a snake. Planets are never even mentioned to my knowledge. Those views were all invented by the church. I'm not looking at Haruka and Michiru from an in-character standpoint because (at the risk of stating the obvious) I'm not a character. I'm sure they didn't analyze each other's personalities when they fell in love, but I'm an outside observer. I'm not going to say that there's one universal standard of "right for each other," but having similar interests and ideals, being of similar intelligence levels, and having differences that complement one another all make a relationship easier. At any rate, I doubt Haruka and Michiru said, "If we're lesbians it'll be controversial and we can become icons of liberalism! Let's hook up!" There are better reasons to support a pairing. |
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 12, 2007 5:05:04 GMT -5
Right. Where did I say the word 'idiot'? Or even implied it? Might I remind you that the middle ages held many geniuses? And might I also inform you of the fact that the bible states homosexuality is a sin because of certain reasons? Do you understand these reasons, rather than just copy them like a good little indoctrinated believer? The bible also states that the earth is flat, that the sun revolves around it and that snakes can talk. Besides that, the bible implies that gaining knowledge is a sin. Seriously, how am I supposed to regard such doctrine? -_-;;; The Bible does not say any of those things. There is one instance of a snake talking, and it wasn't a real snake, per se, it was the devil in the form of a snake. Planets are never even mentioned to my knowledge. Those views were all invented by the church. Okay ... how do you discern what the bible says and what the church invented and claims as being said in the bible? And how do they make it sound so geniune that so many people start regarding it as the absolute truth? Think Columbus for example. Or Galileo. And the bible does imply that gaining knowledge is a sin, in fact, they call it 'the original sin' to this very day.It's actually quite funny that christianity tried to stop Columbus from discovering the Americas, and with it the US, which currently holds the largest population of christians in the world. Talk about irony. I'm not looking at Haruka and Michiru from an in-character standpoint because (at the risk of stating the obvious) I'm not a character. I'm sure they didn't analyze each other's personalities when they fell in love, but I'm an outside observer. I'm not going to say that there's one universal standard of "right for each other," but having similar interests and ideals, being of similar intelligence levels, and having differences that complement one another all make a relationship easier. At any rate, I doubt Haruka and Michiru said, "If we're lesbians it'll be controversial and we can become icons of liberalism! Let's hook up!" There are better reasons to support a pairing. The problem is that their being lesbian is what caused this controversy in the first place. It would be quite useless to say they were wrong in changing them on grounds of, for example, them both being intelligent, since that wasn't the reason to make them cousins. That doesn't mean this is a good reason to support a pairing per say. But you haven't answered my question: if HxM was a MF pairing, do you think the general public would have reacted differently? |
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Post by yumecosmos on Sept 12, 2007 17:31:46 GMT -5
No offense, but where are you getting these ideas? Ferdinand and Isabella were Catholic. They were the ones who sponsored Columbus. They never tried to stop him from discovering America; they didn't even know it existed. And most people in that time did not think the Earth was flat, they just thought it was a lot smaller than it is.
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 13, 2007 3:46:24 GMT -5
No offense, but where are you getting these ideas? Ferdinand and Isabella were Catholic. They were the ones who sponsored Columbus. They never tried to stop him from discovering America; they didn't even know it existed. And most people in that time did not think the Earth was flat, they just thought it was a lot smaller than it is. In school. I just checked wiki, when the hell did they change all that crap? Anywayz, that still leaves Galileo, the original sin and, which is actually ontopic, Michiru and Haruka. |
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Post by yumecosmos on Sept 13, 2007 15:26:34 GMT -5
Believe what you want to believe, but that's how it is in every history book I've read.
The Bible does not say that gaining knowledge was a sin. The sin was doing what God told her not to do. Some have speculated that if Eve had eaten from the tree of life instead, the "test" would have been over and they would have been granted knowledge. But then again, since God is all-knowing, He must have known that Eve would eat the fruit when He put it there. (Which brings up another whole set of theological problems... but I digress.)
Galileo was, again, the church and not the Bible. It's quite easy to distinguish, really--you just read the Bible, and if it's not in there it's not based in scripture. The problem comes when people twist it to their own ends. But that's not a flaw in the concept of religion, it's just human nature.
Sure, the dubbing companies probably would have reacted differently if Haruka was a guy. But this topic was not originally about the controversy, or the changes made in the dub, or the general public's views on gay rights. (The general public could care less about Sailor Neptune, I'm sorry to say.) As far as I can tell the only question was, should Michiru go out with a guy or a girl? It would have been interesting to see people answer based on analysis of Michiru's character rather than lashing out defensively with canon-purist dogma or dub-bashing.
It just seems like nobody actually ever talks about Haruka and Michiru without dragging the controversy into the discussion, and then politics dominates the discussion while the characters themselves fade into the background.
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Wouldn't that mean we should encourage homosexuality? Or at least not try to blacklist it?
(in most countries).
