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Post by Creshosk on May 19, 2007 17:36:38 GMT -5
With you in the topic there's no such thing. How predictable ... an ad hominem reply.[/quote I fight fire with fire. You know this. Like ... oddity of the situation? I've never felt like I've required that in my life. Don't put words in my mouth. Heh, now you're just talkin bullshit. You wanna say something that happened ONCE somewhere that you happened to be a witness of happens on an equal scale as watching tv or falling in love, which happens to be exactly what the point is here? You're losing credibility here, kiddo. Aren't you at least smart enough to pick up on sarcasm? Perhaps I should stop being so subtle, it seems that you don't pick up on subtle very well... Those were examples of fictional Japanese media which involve kissing multiple subjects at the same time. pieces of evidence that proved your statement inaccurate. Wait, a romantic relationship is exactly what I'm talking about. Which side are you on, buddy? Apparently you don't follow trains of thought very well either. The romantic relationship doesn't exist. You only see "evidence" for it because you want to see it... Sorta like a certain chimp and WMDs don't you think? Seeing what wasn't there because they wanted it to be? You wanna tell me that 'hint' and 'evidence' are synonyms in your book? Hints of what? A hint would be "evidence" there are no hints, there is no evidence. No wonder you lost the lawsuit What lawsuit? Hello, focus on reality please, not some demented (and probably drug induced) fantasy world of yours. I've never been involved in a lawsuit in which I lost. Besides that, they were Yumecosmos' choice of words, which I mirrored. Terribly I might add. All you're doing is dodging the issue. call it what you want, that doesn't change what it is. Be it "hints" or "evidence". All it is is justification for your delusional mind. Rationalizing your fraudulent behavior.
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Post by Zyppora on May 20, 2007 6:55:25 GMT -5
I fight fire with fire. You know this. Nope, you fight fire with a whole lot more than just fire. Note 1. Don't put words in my mouth. They were your own words Aren't you at least smart enough to pick up on sarcasm? Perhaps I should stop being so subtle, it seems that you don't pick up on subtle very well... You seem to say this in every discussion we have. Are you going to remember it this time? Those were examples of fictional Japanese media which involve kissing multiple subjects at the same time. pieces of evidence that proved your statement inaccurate. I'll just have to download and watch them then, won't I? Coz frankly I don't believe you. Apparently you don't follow trains of thought very well either. Or if it's too hard to remember, write it down. The romantic relationship doesn't exist. You only see "evidence" for it because you want to see it... Sorta like a certain chimp and WMDs don't you think? Seeing what wasn't there because they wanted it to be? Sorry, but that's a no-go. Bush (or at least his advisors) KNEW there were no such weapons in the ME. It was a bold lie to justify a war/invasion. It has nothing to do with 'seeing what you want to see'. Hints of what? A hint would be "evidence" there are no hints, there is no evidence. Hint != evidence. Go back to school if you can't comprehend that. What lawsuit? Hello, focus on reality please, not some demented (and probably drug induced) fantasy world of yours. I've never been involved in a lawsuit in which I lost. You know what I'm talking about. And demented, drug induced fantasy world, heh, that's a good one. See note 1 Terribly I might add. All you're doing is dodging the issue. call it what you want, that doesn't change what it is. Be it "hints" or "evidence". All it is is justification for your delusional mind. Rationalizing your fraudulent behavior. Delusional mind, fraudulent behavior. See note 1. To be honest, I have no intention of continuing this if all I'm gonna get is insulting ad hominem replies.
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Post by Creshosk on May 20, 2007 11:50:32 GMT -5
I fight fire with fire. You know this. Nope, you fight fire with a whole lot more than just fire. Note 1. You don't truly believe that do you? Pathetic. I at least admit to be ing inflamoitory. The least you can do is stop lying to yourself. They were your own words No they weren't genius. I never said that people needed "oddity of the situation. I was talking about the same basic needs like food, water, love and acceptence. You're the one who brought up "oddity of the situation" with the wants and needs things. Not I. You seem to say this in every discussion we have. Are you going to remember it this time? ]Of course not, I'm going to continue to make the mistake of falsely assuming that you're intelligent. I'll just have to download and watch them then, won't I? Coz frankly I don't believe you. Like I care. Fact of the matter is its true. Which means you were wrong. Or if it's too hard to remember, write it down. You should do that. It's quite like debating with a small child, you can't weven remember whats written in front of you. Sorry, but that's a no-go. Bush (or at least his advisors) KNEW there were no such weapons in the ME. It was a bold lie to justify a war/invasion. It has nothing to do with 'seeing what you want to see'. It has everything to do with it. They wanted to see a reason to go to war, so they saw it. You want there to be a romantic relationship, and lo and behold you see one. Both you and the administration have a lot in common it seems. Bold faced liars so interested in their own agenda you ignore common sense, logic and above all the truth. Hint != evidence. Go back to school if you can't comprehend that. Just because you're not smart enough to truly understand the human language is not my fault. You shoul reattend school so that you might learn about synonyms. There are no hints. You only see hints because you want there to be. Call it what you will its still just you justifying your own diluted little mind. You know what I'm talking about. And demented, drug induced fantasy world, heh, that's a good one. See note 1 Sorry, but by mentioning "No wonder you can't even win a lawsuit" you disproved yourself long before you made the claim. And no, there would have to have been a lawsuit for me to know about. Since the only one exists in your mind you prove me right. Once again. Delusional mind, fraudulent behavior. See note 1. To be honest, I have no intention of continuing this if all I'm gonna get is insulting ad hominem replies. It's not ad hominem if its true genius. But go right ahead and leave. You were wrong, I proved you wrong and you can't handle it. Hell, I asked you to provide evidence and you couldn't do that much. Not surprising, because there isn't any. Its funny how much like a religous person, you beleive what you want to believe wiothout any evidence. I find it rather funny how you are so similar to that which you profess to hate. Funny in a sad way.
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Post by Creshosk on May 20, 2007 14:51:42 GMT -5
Nope, you fight fire with a whole lot more than just fire. To be honest, I have no intention of continuing this if all I'm gonna get is insulting ad hominem replies. Here's a little reminder, since you are either a hypocrite or have such a pathetic memory: So much for objectivity eh? Heh, now you're just talkin bullshit. You're losing credibility here, kiddo. No wonder you lost the lawsuit Acting like a 4 year old. Well, that's very unfortunate then ... for you, that is. I'm used to discussing things on a higher level than you are it seems. at least I have a relationship. I insult you because its all you really deserve. I try to debate with you but your holier than thou attitude gets in the way, So I insult you because its all you deserve. You low life coward.
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Post by Zyppora on May 21, 2007 4:45:47 GMT -5
Nope, you fight fire with a whole lot more than just fire. Note 1. You don't truly believe that, do you? Pathetic. I at least admit to be ing being inflamoitory inflamatory. The least you can do is stop lying to yourself. At least I tried to keep this topic on track. Being inflamatory is not appreciated, doesn't contribute to the topic and is generally an active attempt to steer the discussion off topic. Admitting it isn't exactly going to get you credit. Besides that, I'm getting a strong feeling your ways are actually malicious. You haven't shown up in ages, and when you finally do, you start flaming, and admitting to it at that. If you have nothing contributive to add, don't post. As a GMod, you should have kept that in mind. No, they weren't genius. I never said that people needed "oddity of the situation'. I was talking about the same basic needs like food, water, love and acceptence acceptance. You're the one who brought up "oddity of the situation" with the wants and needs things thing. Not I. It doesn't matter who applied the relation between 'oddity of the situation' and 'needs' (and I do believe that was also you, even though the actual words were posted by me). It was you who started the 'oddity of the situation' tangent in the first place. Don't dish out what you can't take yourself. Of course not, I'm going to continue to make the mistake of falsely assuming that you're intelligent. So knowing that your assumption is false, you continue to make the mistake. And I'm the one who's not intelligent? If it wasn't coming from you, it'd be funny, but since it is, it's just sad. You should do that. It's quite like debating with a small child, you can't weven even remember whats what's written in front of you. I don't need to remember anything that's written 'in front of me' (is that even proper grammar?). After all, it's written 'in front of me', ready for me to read again the moment I would forget about it. But that's here nor there. It has everything to do with it. They wanted to see a reason to go to war, so they saw it. You want there to be a romantic relationship, and lo and behold you see one. Not really. They wanted a reason to justify an invasion. You don't truly believe that the administration was convinced of the fact that there were WMDs in the ME, do you? If so, you're way more naive than I thought you'd be. If the comparison goes up, what would be my reason for assuming the hints (= NOT evidence) for a possible relationship between Makoto and Ami to be true? What would be my secret agenda hmm? I bet you have it all figured out already, haven't you? World domination? Oil reserves? Or perhaps simple money? Seriously, how I would ever achieve that by believing that there's a relationship possible between those two is beyond me. Both you and the administration have a lot in common it seems. Bold faced liars so interested in their own agenda you ignore common sense, logic and above all the truth. Oohw, nice addition. See note 1 of my previous post And also see my previous comment: what would be my 'own agenda'? What would be the goal I'd be trying to achieve through saying there is a possible relationship? Just because you're not smart enough to truly understand the human language is not my fault. grammar?You shoul should reattend school so that you might learn about synonyms. There are no hints. You only see hints because you want there to be. grammar? 'there'? Call it what you will want, its it's still just you justifying your own diluted little mind. Yes, it should definately be me who should be reattending school As you have probably noticed, I've been fishing out some of the spelling and grammar errors YOU have been making. I may have missed a few, but then again, I'm not your personal spellchecker (though ProBoards has one that's free to use - what kept you from using it, I don't know). Delusional mind, fraudulent behavior. See note 1. To be honest, I have no intention of continuing this if all I'm gonna get is insulting ad hominem replies. It's not ad hominem if its true genius. But go right ahead and leave. You were wrong, I proved you wrong and you can't handle it. Lol, so ad hominem replies are false by definition? And then you're calling me delusional. And I won't be leaving, however I will steer this thread back on topic, and I'm not afraid to delete comments or posts that don't comply to the rules. Hell, I asked you to provide evidence and you couldn't do that much. Not surprising, because there isn't any. You keep assuming that I said there was evidence. Go back and read the thread ... AGAIN. Nope, you fight fire with a whole lot more than just fire. To be honest, I have no intention of continuing this if all I'm gonna get is insulting ad hominem replies. Here's a little reminder, since you are either a hypocrite or have such a pathetic memory: I insult you because its all you really deserve. I try to debate with you but your holier than thou attitude gets in the way, So I insult you because its all you deserve. You low life coward. Perhaps I do deserve insults, but I won't allow you to spam up the forum to do just that. You wanna insult me? Do it over IM/PM. [ Zyppora ] GMod Notice: From now on, this thread is back on topic. Any replies or comments not ontopic will be removed. [ /Zyppora ]
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horosha
Scout In Training
Posts: 26
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Post by horosha on Aug 18, 2007 17:17:34 GMT -5
Konnichiwa mina-san,
I will have to say that there is potential and so far none of the clues given shows only a few puffs of smoke and absolutely no fire. Are both Ami and Makoto bisexual? Yes. Both the manga and the anime makes clear that theiir feelings for Usagi goes beyond duty and friendship, which is true of the other Sailor Senshi, but it is also clear that both are interested in boys (despite Ami suppose to be allergic to love letters).
Let's first look at Ami. Yes, she studies too much. The mirror episode in Super S shows that Ami does have a dual nature: one submissive bookworm while the other is a dominating bisexual, yet in the anime you have her with Urwa, her own feelings of romantic sympathy for the romance between Usagi and Mamoru, and a couple of episodes where she showed romantic feelings for the male victim-of-the-month. Like the other Sailor Senshi, Ami does have female friends who appear in the series as victims-of-the-month and she does things with them but there is absolutely no sign of any beyond friendship between them. In the manga, Ami like Makoto shows an interest in Motoki but by the time of Super S, this minor plot of the series disappears completely. In fact except for Mamoru and Artemis (Helos for a short time in Super S), all the minor male characters are dropped and the series yuri tendencies become stronger and stronger. What possible lasting girl-boy relationship for Ami ended when Urwa was dropped from the series at the end of Sailor R.
Now let's look at Makoto. Yes, she is a tomboy. Big time. Is she bisexual? Besides the bonding love for Usagi I mentioned above, Makoto shows interest in being girls just as much as she does boys. Makoto is always protective of Ami always standing just behind the blue-haired girl when the group is together and she does make comments from time to time that she does find Ami cute and attractive. In the Sailor Jupiter/Sailor Uranus fight episode, Makoto shows she is attracted to Haruka and states at the end of the episode that she would like to be just like Haruka, knowing full well Haruka is a lesbian and in an actice relationship with Michiru. Of course you do have the previous episode where you had Usagi and Minako stalking Haruka because of her boyish good looks and thinking she was a he (of course the reaction of the others, including Makoto, at the end of the episode was priceless). Is there evidence that Makoto is interested in boys? Yes. In the manga there is her interest in Motoki and in the anime she is always seeking romance with a good looking boy (in fact there was quarrel between Minako and Makoto over one guy in Super S). In the manga you can never tell what might have happened with the dropping of all the minor male characters except for Aremis and Mamoru (Helos in Super S), thus shifting any romantic angles in the manga towards yuri potential only for the Sailor Senshi except for Usagi and maybe Minako.
What about the dance scene in Super S. Yes, the girls went to the dance with only Usagi having a date (Mamoru), yet it was Ami who danced with Makoto. None of the others did probably because they did get to dance a lot with the boys there and Ami was the only one to notice that Makoto was holding herself away from the boys, waiting for the guy she had romantic feelings for. Ami is usually looked upon as being bookish and shy yet she was the one who came forward and asked Makoto to dance with her, not the other way around. It is clear at least to me that Ami knows Makoto is attracted to her and she is willing to showing that she might also be interested.
Did anything happen afterwards? Only Ami and Makoto know.
Horosha
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Post by yumecosmos on Aug 18, 2007 23:28:48 GMT -5
I don't think you can say that the series shows yuri tendencies just because the focus was shifted away from males. For one, this is a shoujo manga, written by a woman, for girls. The focus has always been and will always be on the girls. And in the fifth season, the main plot is the war between the sailor soldiers. In fact, the focus pretty much shifts away from any character who is not a sailor soldier; Naru, Kotono, and Haruna-sensei both vanished except for one panel where Naru is shown eating lunch with Usagi, Usagi's family shows up for maybe two scenes, Phobos and Deimos are all but forgotten, and every new character introduced is a senshi. As for Ami and Makoto's alleged feelings toward Usagi or the male victims of the day... I'm not sure about that. Interaction and friendship does not equal romance. Unless you think Luna and Yaten are a couple.
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horosha
Scout In Training
Posts: 26
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Post by horosha on Aug 19, 2007 1:45:51 GMT -5
Quotes are from yumecosmos:
"I don't think you can say that the series shows yuri tendencies just because the focus was shifted away from males."
Sugar, there isn't a shift away from males in the manga. Except for Artemis and Mamoru, they drop completely off the radar.
"For one, this is a shoujo manga, written by a woman, for girls. The focus has always been and will always be on the girls."
Wrong. To say that shoujo manga is written by women for girls with the main focus on female characters isn't true. Gender bending is normal for shoujo manga. Yoai is found in shoujo manga (in fact yoai is a sub-group of shoujo manga since these stories are written by women for their female readers, while yuri is a sub-group of shoren manga, written by men for their male readers). Furthermore shoujo mangaki are a mix group of both men and women, just as are shoren mangaki. To label shoujo in such narrow definition is to ignore the reality of the genre.
"And in the fifth season, the main plot is the war between the sailor soldiers. In fact, the focus pretty much shifts away from any character who is not a sailor soldier; Naru, Kotono, and Haruna-sensei both vanished except for one panel where Naru is shown eating lunch with Usagi, Usagi's family shows up for maybe two scenes,"
Very true except that you still have the victim-of-the-month/monster of the month (interesting how the anime did that. Was it to save on time?) where you do have male characters appearing. In the manga you don't even have that.
"Phobos and Deimos are all but forgotten"
Wrong, in the manga Phobos and Deimos are captured by Galaxia's Sailor Senshi.
"and every new character introduced is a senshi."
In the manga that is correct.
"As for Ami and Makoto's alleged feelings toward Usagi or the male victims of the day... I'm not sure about that. Interaction and friendship does not equal romance."
When you have Sailor Mars/Rei stating, "As long as we have our love for Sailor Moon, we don't need any other." It is more than just duty or friendship, Sugar.
"Unless you think Luna and Yaten are a couple"
*giggles* If you mean in the anime, maybe. Remember in the manga the Starlights are pure female, they just cross-dress as the Starlights, they don't change their sex when they henshin.
Horosha
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Post by yumecosmos on Aug 19, 2007 23:25:16 GMT -5
All right, shoujo manga is not in general always focused on women, but Sailor Moon is. There has not been a single season that centers around the male characters (ah, if only...) Even in season one, when Usagi and Mamoru were a large part of the plot, things were still centered around Usagi. Just because they story is about the girls doesn't mean they're all in love with each other. Besides, in the fifth season Mamoru was dead, so he wasn't too active for obvious reasons. And as I said before, a large portion of the female cast also dropped off the radar.
Romance is not the only plot element that exists in Sailor Moon, and all love is not romantic. Rei loves her grandfather too, but I don't think they're a couple.
I'm aware that the Starlights are female in the manga (actually I know the manga a lot better than the anime.) I was just naming that as an example of how two characters interact but are not romantically involved. If all interaction equaled romance, every senshi would be sleeping with every other senshi, and the cats, and Mamoru, and Pegasus, and every minor character... The victims of the day are plot devices who are there for the senshi to save, so we can watch their pretty sparkly henshin and attack sequences. I doubt that they're all intended as love interests, especially since hardly any of them last more than an episode.
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horosha
Scout In Training
Posts: 26
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Post by horosha on Aug 22, 2007 19:21:00 GMT -5
Konnichiwa mina-san,
Quotes are from Yumecosmos
"All right, shoujo manga is not in general always focused on women, but Sailor Moon is. There has not been a single season that centers around the male characters (ah, if only...)"
Yes, the manga was created for teenage girls and young women, but that isn't true of the anime, but that isn't true of the anime. There was worry by Toei of investing that much money into a pure magical girl series (although such anime series like 'Maho No Mako-chan' and 'Maho No Princess Minky Momo' were successful), especially since they were using a new system of promotion by releasing the manga and the anime at the same time, instead of releasing the manga first to see if it would be successful first in printed form. As such several things from shoren manga/anime is incorprated into the series in hopes of attracting boys and young men to watch the show. As such Sailor Moon is the first shojo sentai anime, it has the monster-of-month battle at the end of each episode, which is meant to off-set girl-bonding of most of the episode, and lastly comedy is used to balance the romance. This isn't the first shojo series to use such a mix since you can go back to first ever manga created for girls, Ribon no Kishi, in 1953 (created by the God of Manga, Osamu Tezuka), and many of the things that make up your traditional magical girl manga comes from Ribon no Kishi (deminative sidekick, gender bending, warrior girl, star-crossed lovers, etc...). As such, when Sailor Moon is first shown on Japanese television, it does cross the gender line, having a large number of boys and young men watching it and in the first season of the anime, you have established romantic couples between the Sailor Senshi and one of the many male characters. Even the most unlikely of the Sailor Senshi to have a romantic relationship, Ami, has one.
"Even in season one, when Usagi and Mamoru were a large part of the plot, things were still centered around Usagi. Just because they story is about the girls doesn't mean they're all in love with each other."
True, except the expression of those feelings of affection for Usagi and for each other is expressed in emotions that go beyond just friendship and teammates, especially in the manga. Maybe it isn't as clear cut as shown in Card Captor Sakura but it cannot be said not to exist. I'm not saying it was ever comsumated sexually but I'm saying it is there.
"Besides, in the fifth season Mamoru was dead, so he wasn't too active for obvious reasons. And as I said before, a large portion of the female cast also dropped off the radar."
Yes and no. True, the long standing female cast from the original series does disappear but new ones appear. Also Yuuichirou Kumada still appears in Super S and Stars. In Super S anime many of the victim-of-the-months are old friends of the Sailor Senshi before they met Usagi so you actually get to see another side of the girls, especially Ami and Makoto. 'But again, the manga is much differernt from the anime. Yuuichirou never existed in the manga and the number of minor characters in the manga was always small, the storyline much more focused on the Sailor Moon and the Sailor Senshi and becomes even more so as the series progresses to the point where nothing else matters.
"Romance is not the only plot element that exists in Sailor Moon, and all love is not romantic. Rei loves her grandfather too, but I don't think they're a couple."
Again you are trying to compare the anime to the manga and you really can't. You are correct that not all love is romantic and I'm sure Rei and her Ojiisan aren't not a couple but then again I allow what is spoken between the two to show what their feelings are for each other. Yes, Rei does respect her Ojiisan as senior priest at the shrine and as her elder. At the same time her Ojiisan drives her nuts with his flirty comments to the girls and any visiting female worshippers (although this is toned way down in the manga compared to the anime). And of course there is Rei hatred for men in the manga compared to how Rei is protrayed in the anime. Again, there are differences in the personalities of the Sailor Senshi and the relationships between them.
"I'm aware that the Starlights are female in the manga (actually I know the manga a lot better than the anime.) I was just naming that as an example of how two characters interact but are not romantically involved. If all interaction equaled romance, every senshi would be sleeping with every other senshi, and the cats, and Mamoru, and Pegasus, and every minor character..."
I'm not saying that interaction equals sexual intercourse. Romantic love isn't sex or have people forgotten that. Expression of strong romantic love doesn't mean that the Sailor Senshi are sluts. Are we becoming so jaded to think that romance means sex? It doesn't. Romantic love can mean a measure of affection that goes beyond just friendship and bonding. Think about it. These people are willing to sacrifice their lives for each other, willing to sacrifice their own self-interest for each other, willing to do things that go beyond just friendship and duty. If that doesn't describe romantic love, then I think some people think of sex too much.
"The victims of the day are plot devices who are there for the senshi to save, so we can watch their pretty sparkly henshin and attack sequences. I doubt that they're all intended as love interests, especially since hardly any of them last more than an episode."
Wrong. If you look at the victim-of-the-month, going from the first season on up to the last, each one of them helps defined the Sailor Senshi and show a glimpse of the Sailor Senshi personalities. This is even true of Stars, where the victims help us see the Starlights in a better light (and you get to see the Usagi, Ami, Makoto, Rei and Minako act like fangirls, with Minako even becoming a helper of the Starlights).
Horosha
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Post by Zyppora on Aug 23, 2007 6:59:17 GMT -5
Konnichiwa mina-san, Quotes are from Yumecosmos You may use the [ quote] button to quote people "All right, shoujo manga is not in general always focused on women, but Sailor Moon is. There has not been a single season that centers around the male characters (ah, if only...)" Except for SuperS perhaps Yes, the manga was created for teenage girls and young women, but that isn't true of the anime, but that isn't true of the anime. There was worry by Toei of investing that much money into a pure magical girl series (although such anime series like 'Maho No Mako-chan' and 'Maho No Princess Minky Momo' were successful), especially since they were using a new system of promotion by releasing the manga and the anime at the same time, instead of releasing the manga first to see if it would be successful first in printed form. Do you have any sources for this? As far as wiki goes: So that's at least a 3-month delay on the start. It only makes sense, considering the anime was based on the manga. As such several things from shoren manga/anime is incorprated into the series in hopes of attracting boys and young men to watch the show. As such Sailor Moon is the first shojo sentai anime, it has the monster-of-month battle at the end of each episode, which is meant to off-set girl-bonding of most of the episode, and lastly comedy is used to balance the romance. This isn't the first shojo series to use such a mix since you can go back to first ever manga created for girls, Ribon no Kishi, in 1953 (created by the God of Manga, Osamu Tezuka), and many of the things that make up your traditional magical girl manga comes from Ribon no Kishi (deminative sidekick, gender bending, warrior girl, star-crossed lovers, etc...). Sooo ... lemme get this straight: what you're saying is that Sailor Moon is not really shoujo, but it contains 'extras' that can -also- be found in the first ever shoujo series, which is basically a template for many of the traditional magical girl (shoujo) manga? Isn't that slightly paradoxic? As for the things that you summed up, sentai, monster-of-month, and comedy, those things can be found in basically any anime/manga series, they're not exclusive to shounen or shoujo anime, but don't really upset the fact that a series is of a certain determined genre. The fact that a shoujo series can be a hit amongst the male population as well has much to do with these extras, but I don't see how they make it any less of a shoujo series, considering we're still talking about girls taking the lead roles and being the heroes of all time throughout the series. Next to that, we're talking beautiful, sparkly, twirly things. In contrast, try Dragonball Z for example. Less twirly sparkly stuff, more muscle and blood. As such, when Sailor Moon is first shown on Japanese television, it does cross the gender line, having a large number of boys and young men watching it and in the first season of the anime, you have established romantic couples between the Sailor Senshi and one of the many male characters. Even the most unlikely of the Sailor Senshi to have a romantic relationship, Ami, has one. Ami? A relationship? With who? Please note that Urawa Ryo is NOT her boyfriend. See, boyfriends are usually around in anime series (does he even appear in the manga?). Mamoru in StarS is the notable exception, but at least we all know the reason for his absense. "Even in season one, when Usagi and Mamoru were a large part of the plot, things were still centered around Usagi. Just because they story is about the girls doesn't mean they're all in love with each other." True, except the expression of those feelings of affection for Usagi and for each other is expressed in emotions that go beyond just friendship and teammates, especially in the manga. Maybe it isn't as clear cut as shown in Card Captor Sakura but it cannot be said not to exist. I'm not saying it was ever comsumated sexually but I'm saying it is there. You'd be surprised how deep friendship can run without actually going 'beyond friendship'. I do admit there are multiple hints towards some of them being undercover couples, but, and I've stated this plenty of times before, hints make no evidence. Besides that, even display of affection doesn't give away a relationship. Think Rei and Mamoru in the first saga. "Besides, in the fifth season Mamoru was dead, so he wasn't too active for obvious reasons. And as I said before, a large portion of the female cast also dropped off the radar." Yes and no. True, the long standing female cast from the original series does disappear but new ones appear. Also Yuuichirou Kumada still appears in Super S and Stars. In Super S anime many of the victim-of-the-months are old friends of the Sailor Senshi before they met Usagi so you actually get to see another side of the girls, especially Ami and Makoto. 'But again, the manga is much differernt from the anime. Yuuichirou never existed in the manga and the number of minor characters in the manga was always small, the storyline much more focused on the Sailor Moon and the Sailor Senshi and becomes even more so as the series progresses to the point where nothing else matters. That still doesn't provide any evidence as to whether or not there are relationships, other than the obvious ones. The manga was a fast-running story, which leaves little room for fillerups and insignificant characters, like the anime did. The fact that there was no Yuuichirou in the manga is clear evidence that it hardly took the anime 200 episodes at all to convert the complete story of the manga. Many other factors, and even a whole new evil organization (Makaiju anyone?), were inserted for solely that purpose. "Romance is not the only plot element that exists in Sailor Moon, and all love is not romantic. Rei loves her grandfather too, but I don't think they're a couple." Again you are trying to compare the anime to the manga and you really can't. You are correct that not all love is romantic and I'm sure Rei and her Ojiisan aren't not a couple but then again I allow what is spoken between the two to show what their feelings are for each other. Yes, Rei does respect her Ojiisan as senior priest at the shrine and as her elder. At the same time her Ojiisan drives her nuts with his flirty comments to the girls and any visiting female worshippers (although this is toned way down in the manga compared to the anime). And of course there is Rei hatred for men in the manga compared to how Rei is protrayed in the anime. Again, there are differences in the personalities of the Sailor Senshi and the relationships between them. You say we can't compare the anime to the manga, but you first claim that Ami has a relationship in the first season and then say that Yuuichirou didn't exist. Could you please specify which one we're actually talking about, because this of course leaves plenty of room for anyone to skip from one to the other in order to prove them wrong "I'm aware that the Starlights are female in the manga (actually I know the manga a lot better than the anime.) I was just naming that as an example of how two characters interact but are not romantically involved. If all interaction equaled romance, every senshi would be sleeping with every other senshi, and the cats, and Mamoru, and Pegasus, and every minor character..." I'm not saying that interaction equals sexual intercourse. Romantic love isn't sex or have people forgotten that. Expression of strong romantic love doesn't mean that the Sailor Senshi are sluts. Are we becoming so jaded to think that romance means sex? It doesn't. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but could we please keep things a bit high on the 'niceness' scale? Romantic love can mean a measure of affection that goes beyond just friendship and bonding. Think about it. These people are willing to sacrifice their lives for each other, willing to sacrifice their own self-interest for each other, willing to do things that go beyond just friendship and duty. If that doesn't describe romantic love, then I think some people think of sex too much. Wrong, I think romantic love is intrinsically connected to physical attraction and lust. Romantic love without attraction is an illusion, and romantic love without lust is a beautiful fairy tale by Disney. Besides that, as I said before in my post, you'd be surprised how deep friendship can run on an emotional scale, and it is the Senshi's duty to die before their princess does, so sacrifice is included in the job description "The victims of the day are plot devices who are there for the senshi to save, so we can watch their pretty sparkly henshin and attack sequences. I doubt that they're all intended as love interests, especially since hardly any of them last more than an episode." Wrong. If you look at the victim-of-the-month, going from the first season on up to the last, each one of them helps defined the Sailor Senshi and show a glimpse of the Sailor Senshi personalities. This is even true of Stars, where the victims help us see the Starlights in a better light (and you get to see the Usagi, Ami, Makoto, Rei and Minako act like fangirls, with Minako even becoming a helper of the Starlights). Of course, interaction with minor characters is the only way to show a significant amount of character building, and this is especially true in the first saga, but after that, the amount greatly diminishes, and mainly because it is no longer required. This could also be the reason why the number of minor characters, and the frequency of their appearance, descreases as the storyline develops further. Besides that, the interaction and basically the raison d'etre of the minor characters (other than the repeating ones like Motoki or the Tsukino family), is limited to usually only a single episode. I think you're reading too much into it if you think they're possible love interests for the Senshi, and I suspect that you mainly aim for Makoto seeing her sempai in every other male.
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Post by yumecosmos on Aug 24, 2007 1:25:41 GMT -5
Except for SuperS perhaps Even then I'm not so sure... ^^; Compare the amount of time spent on the revelation of the girls' castles and Princess dresses and Moon's new henshin in the final chapter to the amount of time spent on Mamoru discovering his Golden Crystal. (I did love seeing the Shitennou make a cameo, though! And I guess Helios did play a big part.) As such, when Sailor Moon is first shown on Japanese television, it does cross the gender line, having a large number of boys and young men watching it and in the first season of the anime, you have established romantic couples between the Sailor Senshi and one of the many male characters. Even the most unlikely of the Sailor Senshi to have a romantic relationship, Ami, has one. I have to disagree. Ami and Ryo were friendly and may have flirted, but they don't have a "romantic relationship." They have a strong friendship and possible mutual crushes which never developed into anything more. True, except the expression of those feelings of affection for Usagi and for each other is expressed in emotions that go beyond just friendship and teammates, especially in the manga. Maybe it isn't as clear cut as shown in Card Captor Sakura but it cannot be said not to exist. I'm not saying it was ever comsumated sexually but I'm saying it is there. I'm not really sure what you mean by "beyond just friendship." Maybe you and I have different definitions of the word friendship. I think if someone is your friend, that means you love them. A person you know and like but don't love is just an acquaintance. "Romance", however, has physical and yes, sexual connotations. I'm not saying that interaction equals sexual intercourse. Romantic love isn't sex or have people forgotten that. Expression of strong romantic love doesn't mean that the Sailor Senshi are sluts. Are we becoming so jaded to think that romance means sex? It doesn't. Romantic love can mean a measure of affection that goes beyond just friendship and bonding. Think about it. These people are willing to sacrifice their lives for each other, willing to sacrifice their own self-interest for each other, willing to do things that go beyond just friendship and duty. If that doesn't describe romantic love, then I think some people think of sex too much. Sorry, but I am that jaded. Romance is nothing but a stylized form of mate selection. It may have evolved to a point where it is no longer recognizable as such, but that's where it has its roots. I don't think that humans are so much nobler than other animals that we are immune to physical urges. What measure of affection is there that is not friendship or bonding but is also not a physical relationship? One again maybe it comes down to a definition of terms. I think "friendship" can be a very deep and powerful emotional bond. There are friends who are willing to die for each other without being in a romantic relationship. That's why I kind of don't like the phrase "just friends." The main part of any relationship is friendship; romance is just an extra that some people have. Romantic love without attraction is an illusion, and romantic love without lust is a beautiful fairy tale by Disney. Heh heh heh... did you ever watch Aladdin? >3 And don't knock Disney! Without them we wouldn't have anime!
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Post by Zyppora on Aug 24, 2007 6:00:30 GMT -5
Except for SuperS perhaps Even then I'm not so sure... ^^; Compare the amount of time spent on the revelation of the girls' castles and Princess dresses and Moon's new henshin in the final chapter to the amount of time spent on Mamoru discovering his Golden Crystal. (I did love seeing the Shitennou make a cameo, though! And I guess Helios did play a big part.) Helios plays a central role (might I say, keyrole?) in SuperS. It's true that Chibi-Usa is THE key character in that saga, but the focus turns away from the 'females-only' theme alright. Romantic love without attraction is an illusion, and romantic love without lust is a beautiful fairy tale by Disney. Heh heh heh... did you ever watch Aladdin? >3 And don't knock Disney! Without them we wouldn't have anime! Yes, I did watch Aladdin ... a looong time ago. And I'm not knocking Disney. I'm just sayin that romantic love without lust is a theme often carried out by Disney (but NOT solely them!) in many of their works, and since it's so wellknown/widely distributed, it only makes sense to assume a random person would have gotten this 'fairy tale' from them
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horosha
Scout In Training
Posts: 26
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Post by horosha on Aug 24, 2007 20:43:01 GMT -5
Now let see if I did this right So that's at least a 3-month delay on the start. It only makes sense, considering the anime was based on the manga. According to Frederik L. Schodt from his book, Dreamland Japan: Writings On Modern Manga, (page 93-94), the delay was more like a month or two, "For Sailor Moon, however, the basic story was determined in editorial meetings nearly a year before publication, and a coordinated media offensives was developed. The animated series started up after the second episode of the written story. 'Animation and toys usually have very different production schedules,' Irie says (Yoshio Irie was editor-in-chief of Nakayoshi and was responsible for the aggressive publication of Bishojo Senshi Sailor Moon and for Maho Kishi Ray Earth), 'with at least three or four months lead time required for television and six months for toys. Because we discussed schedules in advance, we were able to carefully coordinate them.' Peak sales seasons in this genre are February (new year), April (new school year), and September (summer vacation), so the Sailor Moon plot was designed to have exciting episodes hit at just these times, along with new characters or warriors and surprising revelations. The television animation show, furthermore, lagged the magazine story by only a month or two, and care was taken to make sure it did not overtake it. Merchandising was also coordinated, with sales of important items targeting summer vacation and Christmas." Sooo ... lemme get this straight: what you're saying is that Sailor Moon is not really shoujo, but it contains 'extras' that can -also- be found in the first ever shoujo series, which is basically a template for many of the traditional magical girl (shoujo) manga? Isn't that slightly paradoxic? As for the things that you summed up, sentai, monster-of-month, and comedy, those things can be found in basically any anime/manga series, they're not exclusive to shounen or shoujo anime, but don't really upset the fact that a series is of a certain determined genre. The fact that a shoujo series can be a hit amongst the male population as well has much to do with these extras, but I don't see how they make it any less of a shoujo series, considering we're still talking about girls taking the lead roles and being the heroes of all time throughout the series. Next to that, we're talking beautiful, sparkly, twirly things. In contrast, try Dragonball Z for example. Less twirly sparkly stuff, more muscle and blood. Sailor Moon is still shoujo but not the traditional format that has existed in this genre since its first creation back in the 50s. Like in a lot of genres, mangaki have a tendency to try and play it safe when they create their manga and the magical girl genre of shoujo manga/anime is no different. Codenamed Sailor V is very much your traditional shoujo manga when you compare it to those that came before it. Nakayoshi wanted Sailor Moon to be a great draw than any shoujo mang/anime before it. At the time Nakayoshi wasn't the number one shoujo publisher, the Shogakukan's magizine, Ribbon, was and Irie wanted to overtake their main rival.So they along with Toei were very willing to bring in things found in other manga genre to make Sailor Moon more original (if you notice up above, Nakayoshi was responsible for the publication of Rayearth, another mix-genre series, this time by CLAMP). Ami? A relationship? With who? Please note that Urawa Ryo is NOT her boyfriend. See, boyfriends are usually around in anime series (does he even appear in the manga?). Mamoru in StarS is the notable exception, but at least we all know the reason for his absense. Nope. As I've arleardy mentioned. What possible romantic male-female couples that existed in the manga go bye-bye by the end of the Deathbusters Cycle. Except for Helos in Super S, the only ongoing male characters in the manga version of SuperS and Stars are Artemis and Mamoru. Does that mean the majority of the Sailor Senshi ending up a bunch of virgins for eternality. Watching as the romance between Usagi and Mamoru develop and bore fruit but never to know it themselves? You'd be surprised how deep friendship can run without actually going 'beyond friendship'. I do admit there are multiple hints towards some of them being undercover couples, but, and I've stated this plenty of times before, hints make no evidence. Besides that, even display of affection doesn't give away a relationship. Think Rei and Mamoru in the first saga. Except the Rei/Mamoru relationship only happens in the anime and not in the manga. In fact in the manga Rei keeps warning Usagi that her attraction toward Tuxedo Kamen would only lead to a broken heart ("Men are not to be trusted"). I find it interesting you poo-poo the Ami/Ryo relationship from the anime but then turn around and bring up the Re/Mamoru relationship from the anime. And don't tell me there wasn't a relationship between Rei and Mamoru. Clearly Rei's reaction at discovering Tuxedo Kamen's true identity and his injury shows she was deeply in love with him. That still doesn't provide any evidence as to whether or not there are relationships, other than the obvious ones. The manga was a fast-running story, which leaves little room for fillerups and insignificant characters, like the anime did. The fact that there was no Yuuichirou in the manga is clear evidence that it hardly took the anime 200 episodes at all to convert the complete story of the manga. Many other factors, and even a whole new evil organization (Makaiju anyone?), were inserted for solely that purpose. Actually the Doom Tree Cycle was a stopgap action done by Toei to allow Takeuchi and Nakoyoshi to respond to the astonishing success of the first season of Sailor Moon. As quoted from the Sailor Moon Role-Playing Game and Resource Book, "The thirteen-episode "Doom Tree" series (Makaiju-hen) was not based on the Bishojo Senshi Sailormoon manga from Naoko Takeuchi. She was only prepared the manga story for the first season of the series, since nobody anticipated that the animated show would be such a phenomenal success. Toei Animation's call for a second season caused a problem because the manga and anime were produced concurrently and Naoko did not have sufficient time to submit a second story to the animators. Consequently, Toei animated an original story about tow Negaverse aliens, Alan and Ann, to give Naoko time to outline the continuation of the series, which is known to anime fans as Bishojo Senshi Sailormoon Romance." You say we can't compare the anime to the manga, but you first claim that Ami has a relationship in the first season and then say that Yuuichirou didn't exist. Could you please specify which one we're actually talking about, because this of course leaves plenty of room for anyone to skip from one to the other in order to prove them wrong I said Ami had a relationship with Ryo in the anime and that Rei also had Yuuichirou in the anime as well, while both don't exist in the manga. Wrong, I think romantic love is intrinsically connected to physical attraction and lust. Romantic love without attraction is an illusion, and romantic love without lust is a beautiful fairy tale by Disney. Besides that, as I said before in my post, you'd be surprised how deep friendship can run on an emotional scale, and it is the Senshi's duty to die before their princess does, so sacrifice is included in the job description Does remaining virgins for eternality a part of the job description too? With the exception of Haruka and Michiru, shouldn't the other Sailor Senshi have a chance to know what you call romantic love? Does sacrifice include everything that makes them girls? Does it really matter the Sailor Senshi are female if in the end they are rob of what makes them so? Most of the reason why we look toward the hints within the manga and the anime for romantic relationships, be they straight or lesbian, because such an asexual existence seems a terrible reality. Of course, interaction with minor characters is the only way to show a significant amount of character building, and this is especially true in the first saga, but after that, the amount greatly diminishes, and mainly because it is no longer required. This could also be the reason why the number of minor characters, and the frequency of their appearance, descreases as the storyline develops further. Besides that, the interaction and basically the raison d'etre of the minor characters (other than the repeating ones like Motoki or the Tsukino family), is limited to usually only a single episode. I think you're reading too much into it if you think they're possible love interests for the Senshi, and I suspect that you mainly aim for Makoto seeing her sempai in every other male. That would be true if the anime actually shows everything that is happening to the girls and the appearances of these minor characters, even for an episode, suggest differently, especially when you reach Super S and Stars. Time again in Super S and Stars you have revelations of what is happening to the girls when they are away from each other. Look at Minako's two-timing episode with two of the Amazon Trio. We only get to see the last part of that very funny happening. As mentioned by Artemis, Minako had been two-timing those guys for weeks. Horosha
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Post by yumecosmos on Aug 25, 2007 20:09:28 GMT -5
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I don't like to think of myself as a feminist, but... girls can be feminine without needing to be in a romantic relationship. And I don't think every person needs to have a romantic relationship to have a fulfilling life. That's what Rei means when she says they don't need anyone if they have Usagi. Is it really so horrible to remain a virgin? Anyway, just because they aren't shown ending up with boys doesn't mean they all have to fall in love with each other. You say that they have much more interaction with their alleged boyfriends than the episodes themselves show, and then you turn around and say that because there are no males shown on screen, they must all be lesbians. So is screen-time an indication of a relationship, or isn't it? Actually the Doom Tree Cycle was a stopgap action done by Toei to allow Takeuchi and Nakoyoshi to respond to the astonishing success of the first season of Sailor Moon. As quoted from the Sailor Moon Role-Playing Game and Resource Book, "The thirteen-episode "Doom Tree" series (Makaiju-hen) was not based on the Bishojo Senshi Sailormoon manga from Naoko Takeuchi. She was only prepared the manga story for the first season of the series, since nobody anticipated that the animated show would be such a phenomenal success. Toei Animation's call for a second season caused a problem because the manga and anime were produced concurrently and Naoko did not have sufficient time to submit a second story to the animators. Consequently, Toei animated an original story about tow Negaverse aliens, Alan and Ann, to give Naoko time to outline the continuation of the series, which is known to anime fans as Bishojo Senshi Sailormoon Romance." Er... I'm pretty sure that's what Zyppora said. And the canon purist in me must comment: Ail/Alan and Ann have nothing to do with the Negaverse/Dark Kingdom. The dub only made it sound that way for some reason -_-;
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