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Post by Zyppora on Jan 25, 2007 7:57:18 GMT -5
You could also argue that the "incest is repulsive" mindset is based on outdated traditions. I wouldn't agree on a personal basis, but I still don't think it's fair to yell at someone for mentioning it when you're free to support relationships that other people might find offensive. If you really want a devil's-advocate view, go here: www.punkerslut.com/articles/modernsexual.html Very long essay on why incest should be legal. (And pedophilia and bestiality and legalized prostitution, for that matter.) I don't agree with a word this guy is saying, but if you're really going for "equal rights for all" that's about as free as it gets. Makes me realize how conservative I really am... Pedophilia is repulsive because it involves at least one party that is not of age to decide what's good for them. 18 years has been chosen as an official limit, but this may vary amongst individuals. Bestiality is repulsive because it involves at least one party that is unable to protest or communicate, and therefor should be protected from sexual desires of humans. (besides that, how would you feel if you found out that the steak you ate last night has been used to satisfy some ugly guy's sexual needs?) Prostitution is not only legalized in NL, it's also a job and there are certain instances where classes can taken. Besides that, prostitutes have to pay taxes over their incomes. I don't find prostitution repulsive because it involves a party being paid for sexual favours of their own free will. Don't get me wrong though, I have never, and will never make use of such facilities, but 'the free will god has given us' includes the choice of becoming a prostitute. What I meant by saying that Usagi has a choice is that if she really loved Seiya, she would have stayed with her while she was on Earth. She wouldn't have pulled away when Seiya tried to kiss her. I don't think the disco episode proves anything either. Usagi was clearly nervous, but it would be kind of rude of her to refuse to go with Seiya and accuse her of trying to do something when she didn't really have any proof of Seiya's intentions (because, well... there weren't any.) Besides, even while she's thinking that, doesn't she also think "oh no, I have my beloved Mamo-chan"? Saying the disco episode doesn't prove anything is more or less ignoring a valid piece of evidence. If you were ever in such a situation, would you go with someone, knowing what will happen (or at least thinking you know)? If she had truly not wanted to go with him, she would have made up an excuse, told him she'd had to be home early, etc. Anything will do (I know, because I've heard them all ). And yes, she has Mamoru, but even that thought seemed snuffed out as she agreed to go with him, only to find out afterwards that his intentions were to go to a disco.
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 25, 2007 23:31:15 GMT -5
I'm not ignoring the evidence, I'm just saying that the significance has been highly exaggerated. Seiya said she'd take her somewhere fun, and Usagi agreed to go. Seiya is her friend, after all. And even if she wanted to leave, Usagi is not always the greatest about communicating her feelings on that kind of thing. Also, she probably didn't want to jump to conclusions (even though inwardly she is.) This is the girl who forgave Galaxia. She can certainly give people the benefit of the doubt. She wasn't absolutely sure of Seiya's intentions until they got inside, and then she froze. She never made any indication of accepting Seiya's advances, either. Otherwise she wouldn't have been on the floor speechless. I guess you can say that Usagi secretly wants Seiya to be flirting with her and is just holding out because she feels obligated to Mamoru, but that's pure speculation. You could make the same argument to say that Usagi has been secretly in love with Rei the whole time. But I don't see any concrete evidence for her wanting Seiya to hit on her.
Anyway, no matter what happened between them, Episode 195 pretty much closes the book.
Seiya acknowledges that Usagi has a boyfriend and that she can't come between them. After that she doesn't seem to flirt with Usagi anymore. To me that's the end of that pairing.
But I'm never going to change your mind, so I probably shouldn't keep arguing... ^^;
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 26, 2007 4:11:53 GMT -5
That's okay, I'm just a stubborn bastard (SMO's customized pain in the back). But yea, before ep 195 there was definately some chemistry going on Seiya may not have had her hearrt, but her charm certainly did its trick.
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 26, 2007 20:18:26 GMT -5
I'll concede that there was chemistry. But I think a sign of a good relationship is that they can both face temptation and still come back to each other. There's something to be said for Mamoru if Usagi had a chance with a famous idol and still stayed loyal to him even though he was out of the country/dead.
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 27, 2007 4:43:45 GMT -5
Yea. Almost makes you think about Mamoru's loyalty in R (referring to his dreams and him not wanting to be with her again). But I think that's done before too ^_^
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Post by yumecosmos on Jan 29, 2007 19:02:41 GMT -5
I don't see how that was unloyal of him. It's not like he wanted to break up with her. He was doing it to protect her. I can't recall Mamoru ever hurting Usagi on purpose, just to hurt her, at any point in the series. And I'm not counting the times he's brainwashed/a zombie. (No one blames Ryou or Reika or Hotaru for the times they were posessed by the enemy. Why does Mamoru get blamed for things he did when he wasn't in control of his body?) Which brings up another point. At the end of the Stars manga, Galaxia has killed all Usagi's friends, including the starlights. But who does Galaxia use as a puppet to torment Usagi? Not Seiya, not even Luna, but Mamoru. (She also used the senshi first, but Mamoru seems to have been her trump card.) She knows it would be way more emotionally devastating for her to see Mamoru killed, which is why she saves him for last. I think their love must be pretty strong if even someone like Galaxia can recognize it.
That said, I've always wondered why Galaxia didn't resurrect Kakyuu or the Starlights. They seem to be more powerful than the outers; you'd think if she really wanted to kill Moon she'd have used them. </offtopic>
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Post by Zyppora on Jan 30, 2007 14:48:51 GMT -5
I don't see how that was unloyal of him. It's not like he wanted to break up with her. He was doing it to protect her. I can't recall Mamoru ever hurting Usagi on purpose, just to hurt her, at any point in the series. And I'm not counting the times he's brainwashed/a zombie. (No one blames Ryou or Reika or Hotaru for the times they were posessed by the enemy. Why does Mamoru get blamed for things he did when he wasn't in control of his body?) Ah, but you're forgetting one thing: aside from Mamoru being in control of his body, and making the choice of ending his relationship with Usagi, the big lesson of Sailor Moon episode 1 through 200 + all specials, movies and the Live Action, in addition to the manga, is that love conquers all. Mamoru giving up love in order to save Usagi doesn't go with that at all. If not unloyal to Usagi, it would at least be unloyal to that.
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