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Post by Sailor_Chibi_Moon on Dec 7, 2003 10:10:57 GMT -5
There Yaten, I moved the discussion. Maturity is no indication of age. I know several people that are younger and more mature than some older and less mature people. How one acts does not indicate age. I'm speaking REGARDLESS OF AGE! Moo Moo is with someone who acts much younger than himself. I don't have any real problem with age difference if the two are on the same level of maturity, but Usagi is still very much a child. That, in my opinion, is wrong.
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Post by Creshosk on Dec 7, 2003 14:52:04 GMT -5
So what would you define maturity as? Would it be mature to exclude someone just because they don't fit your expectations, because they are not like you, or because they are immature?
So you think that Mamoru has reached a state of full growth and development, and Usagi hasn't?
Yes, that explains why he is still going to school himself.
How do YOU define maturity?
Is it simply not acting childish? I don't think so. Maturity is not excluding things because they don't suit you. That is what immature children do.
And so what if Mamoru acts more mature than Usagi? You're saying that he, a mature stable individual, is bad for the immature Usagi, So people who are mature should not associate with those who are immature? For the benefit of those who ARE immature?
Or is that too much of a generalazation and this specific event is an exception due to your baises against Mamoru?
And you have to admit you're fighting rather hard against Mamoru.
"Seiya is better for Usagi because he teases her and makes fun of her all the time which really annoys her and makes her hate the person who is teasing them"
Mamoru used to tease Usagi like Seiya. And Usagi hated it. She thought that Mamoru was a jerk and got angry each time she thought about him. Is this better for the moon rabbit? You say that Mamoru surpresses Usagi. I haven't seen any evidence of this in the Japanese manga. You say that Usagi acts more immature around Mamoru than when she is not.
From what I have seen of the interaction between Mamoru and Usagi. Usagi uses Mamoru.
You say that Mamoru is only nice to Usagi when she's upset. A) How much solo interaction is there in a Mahou shoujo Manga in which they have to fight a "villan of the week"? B) How much screen time does Mamoru get solo? Because I can point out something interesting I have noticed, If you'd like me too. C) If he was only nice to her when she was upset then why does he do things like buying them the things from the festival, although it be begrudgingly
It is also interesting how you twist facts to suit your purpose as well. You claimed that initially Usagi was in the 6th grade and that Mamoru was in college. When as it turns out that Usagi is in the 8th grade and Mamoru is a junior in high school.
And then you like to mix consistencies by mixing facts from the Manga and the Anime, The two are completley differnt medias it would be like trying to combine the information from the X-Men comic books and the X-Men cartoons or the movies. The presentation of both media's are so different that facts had to be changed. So if you're going to use examples from one or the other you have to stick with that one. Because the facts are not consistent from one to the other.
And you do all that just to make Mamoru look bad. Because you have an idea in your head and refuse to change your opinion even if it is wrong. I can't say for certain if they are good for each other. But you can't say that they are bad for each other on things that just aren't true.
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Post by yatenkou on Dec 7, 2003 17:41:31 GMT -5
HISSS! Well it sounds like someone is a bitch!
Creshosk and I have had many arguments over private conversations on this matter. Maybe I underestimated the grade levels, but HELLO. All the things you've said in the last point i have already ARGUED WELL AGAINST.
Let me poll a few people i know that know Sailor Moon well... Names have been modified because these people did not want to be contacted. But Creshosk, i'm sure you might recognize some of them.
First up we have a fellow who I've known for a very long time, and has known Sailor Moon for longer hten I have.
I loVE YatEN Kou: So you would say that Mamoru is kinda gross for making out and possibly making love to a middle schooler? I loVE YatEN Kou: And that he's not that great of a person anyways? And that Seiya is a better choice for Usagi, who is immature anyways? I loVE YatEN Kou: Usagi ALSO seemingly reverts to more immaturity when Moo Moo's around dontcha think? I loVE YatEN Kou: damn SHRINKING WINDOWS I loVE YatEN Kou: of doom! AioSasyaki: umm.. AioSasyaki: yes. yes i do I loVE YatEN Kou: thank you! ^^
This next guy is someone who just got into Sailor Moon not too long ago.
*Tabby* says: Now you would agree with me if I said that Mamoru was just a little SICK for being almost out of school and dating a middle schooler? *Tabby* says: Maybe when they are older it might not make that much of a difference *Tabby* says: but at that CURRENT point in time, he's hitting on a middle schooler *Tabby* says: you do agree that's pretty gross right? *Tabby* says: yes? J-H says: yeah i don't like him much, he's not too great of a person
Here's a girl who dated a GUY i know and he DID turn out to be a gigantic sicko. I knew this guy and trust me, he was really sick
I loVE YatEN Kou: you know a little about sailor moon right? Aerisme: Yeah I loVE YatEN Kou: Don't you think it's rather disgusting that Mamoru is a junior in high school and getting wiht a middle schooler who is only fourteen years old? I loVE YatEN Kou: this guy on this message board i go to I loVE YatEN Kou: is convinced that it's perfectly allright that Mamoru could possibly be taking advantage of a young girl Aerisme: o.o Mamoru's out of high school Aerisme: But it's legal in Japan I loVE YatEN Kou: It's legal in Japan I loVE YatEN Kou: but is it morally right? I loVE YatEN Kou: for him to do that to Usagi? I loVE YatEN Kou: i mean you have to admit that Mamoru isn't exactly of a good morale I loVE YatEN Kou: he's not as loving and as kind as seiya Aerisme: Well, I'm not really the best person to ask, seeing as I used to date a 25-year-old man
I'm e-mailing a few more people, and I'll post their e-mails as I get them on this subject.
Creshosk trust me, it's fine and dandy if you want to bring in all the logistics, but the general consensus is that of dissent towards Mamoru.
YOU CAN TRY TO PROVE IT ALL YOU LIKE, BUT MAMORU IS AT A HIGHER MATURITY LEVEL THEN USAGI, AND TO MOST PEOPLE IT LOOKS AS IF HE'S TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HER YOUNG INFATUATION WITH HIM. SHE ADMITTED THE FIRST TIME SHE MET HIM THAT HE WAS HANDSOME.
He teased her, yes. Seiya teases her, yes. However Seiya's teasing is in a much more loving manner, he doesn't outright say "YOu're stupid and you eat too much" he just calls her odango atama and pretends like he's her boyfriend.
If my boyfriend had ever called me stupid and told me i was fat I probably would have never forgave him long enough to get together with him. it's AN ISSUE CALLED RESPECT.
Moo Moo comes to respect Usagi. But in the beginning he doesn't respect her all that much, just that she is his love from a past life and that she's sailor moon. No respect leads to people using people for their own benefit. I THINK I WOULD KNOW.
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Post by yatenkou on Dec 7, 2003 17:42:52 GMT -5
P.S. and YOU have a right to call us close-minded? sounds like you're just as close-minded as we are APPARENTLY. So i wouldn't be hypocritical when you preach so feverently against it.
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Post by yatenkou on Dec 7, 2003 18:25:06 GMT -5
P.S.S. I brought this up while we were living together Creshosk, and you were all too ready to agree with me then... hmm THAT'S MIGHTY PECULIAR
Let me ask you, would YOU date a middle schooler? or someone with the maturity of Usagi when you were a junior in high school? Mamoru is OBVIOUSLY a handsome and smart guy, so why would he go for someone like Usagi when he could have any girl that he wanted. WHEN THEY GOT TOGETHER THEY WERE NOT IN LOVE. THEY WERE IN LOVE FROM A PAST LIFE. And apparently Usagi is in love with HIM NOW, but i suppose i'd be in love with someone who saved my ass and let me be a baby my whole life.
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Post by Creshosk on Dec 8, 2003 0:22:14 GMT -5
HISSS! Well it sounds like someone is a bitch! 1. Ad Hominem - Personal attack Creshosk and I have had many arguments over private conversations on this matter. Maybe I underestimated the grade levels, but HELLO. All the things you've said in the last point i have already ARGUED WELL AGAINST. By "argued well against" do you mean at great length which is true. or argued against with skill which is not true. I say its not true because personal opinions have no place in a debate. And neither do faulty facts. Let me poll a few people i know that know Sailor Moon well... Names have been modified because these people did not want to be contacted. But Creshosk, i'm sure you might recognize some of them. 3. Bandwagon Appeal and I think 5. Hasty Generalization If you altered the names how am I supposed to recognize them? First up we have a fellow who I've known for a very long time, and has known Sailor Moon for longer hten I have. 11. Non Sequitur I loVE YatEN Kou: So you would say that Mamoru is kinda gross for making out and possibly making love to a middle schooler? 2. Ad Populum I loVE YatEN Kou: And that he's not that great of a person anyways? And that Seiya is a better choice for Usagi, who is immature anyways? 5. Hasty Generalization 6. Either/or 7. Circular Reasoning 8. Begging the Question 9. False Analogy I loVE YatEN Kou: Usagi ALSO seemingly reverts to more immaturity when Moo Moo's around dontcha think? 10. Post hoc ergo propter hoc (faulty cause and effect) I loVE YatEN Kou: damn SHRINKING WINDOWS I loVE YatEN Kou: of doom! AioSasyaki: umm.. AioSasyaki: yes. yes i do I loVE YatEN Kou: thank you! ^^ Can't say anything about this section. This next guy is someone who just got into Sailor Moon not too long ago. 11. Non Sequitur *Tabby* says: Now you would agree with me if I said that Mamoru was just a little SICK for being almost out of school and dating a middle schooler? 2. Ad Populum *Tabby* says: Maybe when they are older it might not make that much of a difference 8. Begging the Question *Tabby* says: but at that CURRENT point in time, he's hitting on a middle schooler 4. Red Herring *Tabby* says: you do agree that's pretty gross right? 2. ad populum *Tabby* says: yes? J-H says: yeah i don't like him much, he's not too great of a person 5. Hasty Generalization Here's a girl who dated a GUY i know and he DID turn out to be a gigantic sicko. I knew this guy and trust me, he was really sick 5. Hasty Generalization 10. Post hoc ergo propter hoc (faulty cause and effect) I loVE YatEN Kou: you know a little about sailor moon right? 10. post hoc, ergo propter hoc 11. Non sequiter Aerisme: Yeah I loVE YatEN Kou: Don't you think it's rather disgusting that Mamoru is a junior in high school and getting wiht a middle schooler who is only fourteen years old? 2. ad populum I loVE YatEN Kou: this guy on this message board i go to I loVE YatEN Kou: is convinced that it's perfectly allright that Mamoru could possibly be taking advantage of a young girl 1. Ad Hominem 11. Non sequiter Aerisme: o.o Mamoru's out of high school This is simply false evidence. He is not out of high school at the time that Usagi is 14. They do age at the same time you know. In the manga Mamoru advancing two grades forward would be into college. Usagi adancing two grades forwaard would put her in the tenth grade. Which is the grade she is in at the end of the manga. Aerisme: But it's legal in Japan I loVE YatEN Kou: It's legal in Japan I loVE YatEN Kou: but is it morally right? I loVE YatEN Kou: for him to do that to Usagi? 2. Ad populum I loVE YatEN Kou: i mean you have to admit that Mamoru isn't exactly of a good morale 11. Non sequiter I loVE YatEN Kou: he's not as loving and as kind as seiya Aerisme: Well, I'm not really the best person to ask, seeing as I used to date a 25-year-old man I'm e-mailing a few more people, and I'll post their e-mails as I get them on this subject. Just don't use your ad populum attack. And what does other people's opinions matter? Band wagoning is also a logical fallicy. Creshosk trust me, it's fine and dandy if you want to bring in all the logistics, but the general consensus is that of dissent towards Mamoru. ad hominem, Hasty Generalazation, Band wagon YOU CAN TRY TO PROVE IT ALL YOU LIKE, BUT MAMORU IS AT A HIGHER MATURITY LEVEL THEN USAGI, AND TO MOST PEOPLE IT LOOKS AS IF HE'S TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HER YOUNG INFATUATION WITH HIM. SHE ADMITTED THE FIRST TIME SHE MET HIM THAT HE WAS HANDSOME. Ad hominem, Hasty generalazation, non sequiter. Circular reasoning. He teased her, yes. Seiya teases her, yes. However Seiya's teasing is in a much more loving manner, he doesn't outright say "YOu're stupid and you eat too much" he just calls her odango atama and pretends like he's her boyfriend. Hasty generalazation If my boyfriend had ever called me stupid and told me i was fat I probably would have never forgave him long enough to get together with him. it's AN ISSUE CALLED RESPECT. nothing wrong with this statement. Moo Moo comes to respect Usagi. But in the beginning he doesn't respect her all that much, just that she is his love from a past life and that she's sailor moon. 10. Post hoc ergo propter hoc No respect leads to people using people for their own benefit. I THINK I WOULD KNOW. Hasty generalzation P.S. and YOU have a right to call us close-minded? sounds like you're just as close-minded as we are APPARENTLY. So i wouldn't be hypocritical when you preach so feverently against it. P.S.S. I brought this up while we were living together Creshosk, and you were all too ready to agree with me then... hmm THAT'S MIGHTY PECULIAR Ad hominem. Post hoc ergo propter hoc Post hoc ergo propter hoc, non sequiter. Mamoru was 17-18, I am 20. False analogy The answer is still no. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, I was too shy when I was in junior high to get to know anyone. But yes, since level of maturity does not equal age. If a girl within my ideal age range was interested in me I would ignore maturity level. Non sequiter. when he could have any girl that he wantedand he did, obviously because he is with her. Help me understand something here: How do you define love? And also if a person who is in love with a person, loses their memory time passes and they regain their memory they are not supposed to act on their feelings? Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. non sequiter.
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Post by TaikiKou on Dec 8, 2003 0:56:25 GMT -5
Was that shot taken at mamoru due to the pseudo romantic interests in his offspring that the fanbase community has placed on them or at the relationship between him and Usagi (and they are like only 3 years apart btw)? Either way it is an inaccurate statement about him, as only in the darker parts of the fanbbase community will you find any evidence of this "cradle robbing" but all that is non-canon and should thusly be disreguarded. EXCUSE ME, let me set this straight... First off Mr. Creshosk, when Moo-moo and Usagi get together, she's fourteen, about a sixth grader...... and he's a upperclassmen high school student/lower classmen college student... THAT my friend is definate cradle robbing. A three years difference in my opinion in those younger years IS cradling robbing. if this wasn't an anime/manga, how do you think a sixth grader going out with a senior or junior in high school would look? it would look sick and wrong. Sixth graders are babies, they are barely out of elementary school. He could at least wait two more years until she's like half-way legal. Let's not forget Moo-moo's absolute lack of romance half hte time. "... and then he falls asleep on the couch." Usagi says this when Luna asks her what it's like to kiss. What an insenstive jerk! At least Seiya would have made sweet passionate love to her, or give her a five minute break from his being an idol to give her a kiss and snuggle her. NORMALLY you'd THINK that Moo-moo, supposing to be her prince charming, would take a little more time for her. Good for him, he's going to Harvard for a year in the Stars series. My boyfriend is leaving for two years and I don't have a problem with that, but I do think their departing is a little less then what I expected. Moo-moo gives ring, Usagi gets teary-eyed. The end. P.S. I could argue more about Mamoru being a cradle robber if you like. I think it'd be best if you took some of your own advice miss Yaten and don't base everything off the anime, especially not the american dub. Mamoru was still only about 17 or 18 when sailor moon began, thats still only a three or four year difference, which is not all that major especially over in Japan. And compared to Card Captor Sakura? The Teacher asking one of his students to marry him and we are talking elementary school here. And as for the no romance thing? That is entirly the Anime conversion's fault. in the manga he was very sweet and romantic. So don't base all of your information off of one source just like you tell other people to do Miss Yaten. And also Princess Fireball is an inaccurate thing to call her as kakyuu is more of a pun off of the olive branch and not off of any such ball of fire. True Mamoru is a LITTLE better in the manga, however I still think he doesn't show her as much affection as he should. Still from reading the manga it makes him look like even MORE the cradle robber considering Usagi is PREGNANT when they get married and she's only sixteen and he's twenty something And besides this whole Seiya/Usagi argument is pratically NIL in the manga considering Seiya doesn't show Usagi as much obvious affection in the manga ANYWAYS. So of course we're going to be arguing about the anime.
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Post by TaikiKou on Dec 8, 2003 0:57:23 GMT -5
Creshosk, That ONLY happened in the manga of CCS. That doesn't happen in the anime, but Rika does love her teacher cause he reminds her of her dad. Oh, since you want to bring CCS into this, You remeber episode 10? Sakura's mom was only 16 when she got hitched. To her Teacher! That's apperantly OK in Japan, but still... Well, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. After all this is CCS and SM we are talking about. and there are no Mahou Shojo IRL. The age difference was calculated in the case of SM. That way both the Western and Eastern Zodiac Matches the characters together. And tell me, where did you hear about Usagi getting pregnant at age 16? Well LET'S SEE... in the manga after Mamoru is resurrected they almost immediately get married.. she is sixteen. She has to have Chibi-Usa before she is at least nineteen because that's around the time when the great "devastation" happens because Neo-Queen Serenity is twenty. They say little things like this in little inserts in the manga where Naoko draws little chibi characters and then writes their stats below them to give the reader a low down. Anime or Manga? Anime? No, they don't have ChibiUsa until after the disaster Chibiusa is like 5 in the 30th century. Manga? Chibiusa IS over 300 according to the manga. She just stopped aging so by the 30th century she was 300 years old at least. So she could be 900 years old like you claim. since they don't say how much older than 300 she is. It could be 600 years more. And anyway you look at it Mamoru and Usagi are still only three years apart. So when he's 29 she'll be 26. And I don't think that three years is too big a difference. Do you Miss Yaten? Firstly. I find your math incredibly off. Usagi was FOURTEEN when the manga and anime started out, and Mamoru was a senior.. that'd make them four or five years apart. And yes, that is too old in my opinion. She's a seventh grader and he's a senior in high school, that's just wrong. I'm suprised Moo Moo isn't made fun of by his high school buddies. And as for ME personally, I think three years is a little much, four is when it gets disgusting to me, at least for people who are still in school. If you're a senior and dating some college kid (i fall in this category, though my boyfriend and I are only two years apart) It gets a little less disgusting. Especially if you're in middle school and you're DATING A FREAKING SENIOR IN HIGH SCHOOL Icky! Child molestor Moo Moo.. and we all know he's talked her into bed already, it's displayed prominently several times in the manga series. The school year starts in April in japan. 17 is the entry age for High School Seniors. In April when Usagi was 14 Mamoru would be 17. since Usagi would be 15 at the end of june and Mamoru would be 18 at the begining of August. There is a timeframe window where Usagi and Mamoru are two years apart. After June 30th and before August 3rd. When she would be 15 and he would be 17. So they are 2 to 3 years apart, and not 4 to 5 years apart like you claim. So I'm affraid that it is your math that is off, for even if he was one year older that would make them three-four years apart. So at most they are four years apart(if he is 18 when a senior in high school), at least they are two years apart (between 6/30 and 3/8). How did you calculate 5 years? I showed you how I got my answer. The school year starts in April in japan. 17 is the entry age for High School Seniors. In April when Usagi was 14 Mamoru would be 17. since Usagi would be 15 at the end of june and Mamoru would be 18 at the begining of August. There is a timeframe window where Usagi and Mamoru are two years apart. After June 30th and before August 3rd. When she would be 15 and he would be 17. So they are 2 to 3 years apart, and not 4 to 5 years apart like you claim. So I'm affraid that it is your math that is off, for even if he was one year older that would make them three-four years apart. So at most they are four years apart(if he is 18 when a senior in high school), at least they are two years apart (between 6/30 and 3/8). How did you calculate 5 years? I showed you how I got my answer.
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Post by TaikiKou on Dec 8, 2003 0:58:21 GMT -5
here is a manga translation exerpt: Sailor Moon Tsukino Usagi Birthday: June 30 - Cancer Blood Type: O Age: 14 Enrolled at Minato-ku Juuban Junior High School Sailor Mercury Mizuno Ami Birthday: September 10 - Virgo Blood Type: A Age: 14 Minato-ku Juuban Junior High School Sailor Mars Hino Rei Birthday: April 17 - Aries Blood Type: AB Age: 14 T-A Private Girls School Chiba Mamoru Birthday: Unknown Blood Type: Unknown Age: Approx. 17 to 18 Enrolled at Moto Azabu Private High School - Friend or enemy??? A suspicious character...!!! This is in the 4th Act, it is the information that Luna has. Now it is confirmed that he is in high school when the manga starts so it is three to four years difference with a 2 to three 3 window gap when it is after Usagi's Birthday and before Mamoru's birthday. She is 14 no denying that. if he is 17. then they are 2 years 1 month 3 days apart. if he is 18 they are 3 years 1 month 3 days So in all actuality they are only 2-3 years apart. THat's still way to damn old for him to be sleeping with her. Now Mr. Creshosk, if you PROMOTE CHILD MOLESTATION. go ahead and continue, however I doubt that very much. A seventeen/eighteen year old having sex with a fourteen year old CHILD who is BARELY a teenager is HARDLY anything short of statuatory rape. Lets look at the facts. You started calling Mamoru a child molestor. I tried to point out that at the begining of the manga they was less time between the ages than you thought. Now you are claiming that they were having sex at the begining of the manga. Where did you pick up that they were having sex when she was fourteen? At what point in time is it okay to have a three year age gap? 100 and 103? 50 and 53? 25 and 28? 22 and 25? 20 and 23? 19 and 22? 18 and 21? 17 and 20? What is the difference in age between you and your current boyfriend? I'd also like to ask the expert of the starlights a question. What was the age of Yaten when he first appered in the manga? Pay a little more attention when you read, I said the age difference between my boyfriend and I was TWO YEARS. It's my firm belief that Moo Moo is at the least three years away, however I think that four years is much more likely. Yaten is supposed to be seventeen however his real age is really unknown. His earth disguise is unbeknowst to anyone besides Kakyuu and the other two Starlights. All three are in Usagi's grade. You can carry on all you like, but as I said that's a big enough age gap to be called statutory rape. Your firm belief is quite inaccurate. I showed you the math. he is at most 3 years 1o months and 27 days older than her. minimum 2 years 10 months and 27 days. They hadn't done anything by the time she turned fifteen. and the first incident of something happening for sure she is 16. and at that time he is most likely 18. it is before his birth day in 93 after all. So I'm sorry but it is your math that is off. he's either 18 about to turn 19 or he's 19 about to turn 20 but the age gap is still either 2 years 10 months 27 days if he is 17 at the begining of the manga 3 years 10 months 27 days if he is 18 at the begining of the manga It is impossible for him to be 4 years older than her, due to when their birthdays are. The manga begins in february 92. early 92 Usagi 14 Mamu 17-18 late 92 Usagi 15 Mamu 18-19 aug 93 Usagi 16(it is after her birthday) Mamu 18-19(his birthday is coming up) And it was in Aug 93 before his birthday when it is confirmed they did something.
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Post by TaikiKou on Dec 8, 2003 0:58:47 GMT -5
I think I'm just going to throw some facts out. LEVEL/GRADE | AGE (YEARS OLD) | Pre-School | Under 5 | | | Elementary School | | Kindergarten | 5-6 | 1st Grade | 6-7 | 2nd Grade | 7-8 | 3rd Grade | 8-9 | 4th Grade | 9-10 | 5th Grade | 10-11 | 6th Grade | 11-12 | | | Intermediate School (middle school: 6th-8th grade) | | 7th Grade | 12-13 | 8th Grade | 13-14 | | | High School | | 9th Grade (Freshmen year) | 14-15 | 10th Grade (Sophomore year) | 15-16 | 11th Grade (Junior year) | 16-17 | 12th Grade (Senior year) | 17-18 |
This chart is a general guide to the age of students at each level in the American school system. Children are often younger or older than the norm, but often only by one year. The first number is generally the age of the student upon entering that schooling level, while the second is the age of the student when he/she has completed that schooling level. In Japan a school year begins in April and ends in March. In Japan you normally graduate at the age of 18 in high school as a senior or grade 12 In Japan: The Article 177 of the Penal Code puts the age of consent for sexual actitvity at thirteen (13) years At the begining of the manga Mamoru is a Junior in high school. Although Luna has him down for being 17-18, at the same time she has Usagi as 14. Usagi's Birthday is June 30th. Mamoru's is Aug 3rd. Mamoru is most likely 17 at the begining of the manga. Sailor Moon was initially released in Nakayoshi, February 1992. In August 1993, The 8th act of Sailor Moon was released in which it was August as well. So events can be considered to happen when the Act's were initially released. With the above paragraph in mind Most likely Mamoru would have been born August 3rd, 1974. Usagi would have been born June 30th, 1977. 2 years 10 months 27 days. Here, this is page 15 from Naoko Takeuchi's Material's Collection. These are her notes about the characters. The area I have emphesis on is talking about his age. Naoko Takeuchi said herself that Mamoru is 17-18. He is not more than 4 years apart. due to the placements of their birthdays they are 2(if he's 17)-3(if he's 18) years 10 months and 27 days apart. Dude, no matter who is right here, my opinion is that they were on completely different levels of maturity. Moo Moo acted a get deal more mature than Usagi, she was still very much and innocent child. That's just not right. I agree Saturn. And Creshosk, if you are so intent on pursuing the case you need to move your argument to Mamoru's board because it OBVIOUSLY don't belong under StarLights, or Princess Kakyuu for that matter I will persue it where it is continued to be persued. Maturity is no indication of age. I know several people that are younger and more mature than some older and less mature people. How one acts does not indicate age.
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Corrin
Scout In Training
Posts: 30
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Post by Corrin on Dec 8, 2003 1:02:21 GMT -5
Yaten Kou, in the last few posts, you have used the following logical fallacies in a debate with Creshosk: Ad Hominem - A personal attack on the person presenting the argument as a way to disprove the argument. You accused Creshosk of being stubborn, immature, close-minded, and hypocritical. You then followed up with an "I know you are but what am I?" type reply. Whether or not either of you are right about that, that's not the issue in question. False Analogy (1) - The assumption that two things are alike in more ways than one. You assume that due to the fact one guy that dated a younger woman was a "sicko", Mamaro must also be a "sicko." All that does is it proves the case happens, not that this case is identical. But that's not the issue in question. False Analogy (2) - The assumption that two things are alike in more ways than one. You assume that the moral/ethical choices that you would make, were you given Usagi's situations, are the correct way to act. You have a god-given right to dictate your own actions, be they right or wrong. But to say that Usagi's choices in the same circumstance should match yours is wrong, that would take away her individuality. Clearly, she does not act like you so comparing her to yourself will create a false analogy, not assisting the issue in question. ------------------------------ Secondly, you use facts in your argument that have yet to be proven. Reading the conversations you provided, there is no proof that you're doing anything but "leading the witness" which inadmissible in a court of law. AioSasyaki looks like he/she agreed with you based only on your half of the evidence, which is most likely biased due to lack of the facts. Did you present both yours and Creshosk's side of the argument with him/her? J-H has a personal problem with Mamaru, which he's perfectly allowed to have due to his god-given right of opinion. Score one for you. But I don't see why you put Aerisme's conversation in there. He/She did not agree with your argument or even appear to desire involvement. One out of three isn't winning you any juries, sweetheart. ------------------------------- Third, where do you get your facts? Who are you asking in this "general consensus?" Your friends who agree with you, or smile and nod whenever you go on and on and they really don't care? Or do you ask people who've listened to both sides of the argument? A general consensus does not occur unless you find a broad based opinion market. I ask you again; where do you get your facts? Also, have you ever had a pet-name, or a nick-name? A name that just stuck with you despite all your effort? A name that you grew accustomed to, or even attached to? It does happen, and "in the story," it did happen. Odango Atama became Mamaru's pet name for Usagi. When you were living with Creshosk, did either of you call each other "honey", "sweetie", "dear", etc.? -------------------------------- What it all boils down to is that this is character defamation, plain and simple. You may have your opinion of right and wrong, which is your God-given right and is not in question. However, you continue to use misinformation and logical fallacies to perpetuate this offensive report. My personal opinion, which is my God-given right to have and share, is that this entire argument is stupid and infantile. You are debating over the moral conduct of a heroic, fictional character whose conduct was predetermined by the author, Naoko Takeuchi, and cannot, nor will not change due to anyone's opinion. It is as futile as asking James Bond to pick a woman and stick with her. Right or wrong, it's not going to happen. Ian Fleming isn't going to change a thing (and he wouldn't even if he were alive.) Also, George Lucas isn't going to fix Star Wars (1977) to make Luke Skywalker less whiny because a few people didn't like the way he acted. (At least, he better not ). I don't claim to dictate the moral conduct of others or change the opinions of anyone who disagrees with me. But if you're going to present an argument, come prepared to discuss your side logically and with proof of your statements.
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Post by Creshosk on Dec 8, 2003 16:26:56 GMT -5
How about if I just say that you are right, you're always right and you will always be right, just like I used to when we were together and not have an opinion of my own? Just like one of my roommates does or told me they did. It's not worth trying to have a debate with you, you make things too personal.
Nobody can argue with you or have an opinion of their own or else they have a superiority complex. You know everything about everything. Fine I concede. Keep telling people that Mamoru and usagi are 5 years apart. whatever. There is no need for things like truth and facts when you are involved. The whole world revolves around you. Is this what you want to hear? So be it.
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Post by Sailor_Saturn on Dec 9, 2003 18:47:49 GMT -5
If one more person complains that their opinion is their "God-given right" I will scream. No one here has said otherwise. All that has been argued is the accuracy of the facts presented to support our opinions.
Now that Creshosk has beaten every argument into the ground repeatedly, I just want to say one thing. It is my opinion that age doesn't really matter. (Good thing too because I seem to have a thing for older guys.) No, I think that Usagi and Moo Moo just really don't seem to go together. For whatever reasons people want to argue, that's just what I feel after reading all the manga and watching a good portion of every season.
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Post by Creshosk on Dec 9, 2003 19:40:00 GMT -5
That I have no problem with. If you prersonally feel that they are not right for each other that's fine. I personally don't know if they are right for each other, and personally I don't care. I don't care about the characters Usagi and Mamoru enough. If they are good for each other fine. If not oh well.
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Corrin
Scout In Training
Posts: 30
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Post by Corrin on Dec 10, 2003 12:23:16 GMT -5
All I'm saying is if you're gonna accuse Darien of "robbing the cradle," you better not use false information to prove it.
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