Haruka & Michiru: Does it really matter?

[yumecosmos]

Hello from 2019. I'm editing this post to point out everything wrong with everything I said. tl;dr Zyppora is right.

Actually I'm not so sure if we wouldn't. I'm pissed at them because they changed Zoicite into a female for example, but the only reason I'm not unhappy about their relationship not existing in Naoko's original works is because the manga didn't give them any kind of personality at all it seemed. They were like the daily enemies, only appearing for a quick attack and then being disposed of, whereas in the anime they had more airtime, one could get to know them better, etc.

In that case, why do I never see anyone posting topics about whether it was fair of Toei to make the Starlights into men?
Do the Shitennou have to be in a relationship to have a personality? >.> I thought they had plenty of personality in the manga. (Peppermint Storm gives a great analysis of them ^.^ ) I still don't see why making Zoisite gay and a backstabber and Nephrite's enemy was acceptable, but making him a woman wasn't. If Toei had been the one to make him into a woman, would you be complaining?

They weren't men, they were (probably) genderqueer, and that's not even remotely the same situation. And it wasn't about making Zoisite female, it was about censoring a gay couple. Nice attempt at White Feminism, though.

On the morality thing: it very much is an issue, like I pointed out. If it wasn't for (US) morals being so different from the morals of the country of origin, there would have been no need to change it, or would there?

I'm not saying morality was not a factor in their decision. But it's not a factor in deciding whether or not their changes are fair.

What standard of fairness doesn't include a concept of morality? That's just really backwards.

One last thing: noone but Toei currently holds any kind of right to Sailor Moon and any of its franchise. I'd like to think they locked every license because of how it got buthered abroad, but that's just my opinion. I don't think there was ever a reason stated for the lockdown.

Sorry, but I really don't understand that argument. I know the license has since expired, but Cloverway held it at the time it was aired. And there's no support for the claim that Toei locked down the lisences because they were "butchered." If that were the case, why would they have let it go over several years and four seasons?

Irrelevant.

Besides that, I don't believe they ever had that kind of right. The only right they had was to air it and earn money over it. Then again, I never read the contracts, but how else would you explain Toei freezing the licenses?

There are plenty of other explanations. It was probably a financial issue. I don't think Toei, or any company, would be so noble as to make a decision that would cause them to lose money just to preserve the integrity of a fifteen-year-old series which they themselves altered heavily when they adapted it from the manga.
If DiC and Cloverway weren't allowed to make any changes to the series, I doubt they would have gotten away with it for as long as the series has gone on. And I don't know why Toei would include such a demand in their contract. I've never heard of any other anime that wasn't allowed to be changed when it was adapted into English.

Well the bit about everything revolving around money might be a little bit true... but there aren't the same cultural factors in play in Japan, so that argument is moot.

Even though their body language SCREAMS romantic love.
And I never said anything about a dubbie starting this topic, just that they're here on SMO

Unless you believe that Cloverway is supporting incest, the fact that they made the change indicates that they intended them not to be lovers. They've gone to great lengths (such as the aforementioned "Brad" comment) to make it appear that they aren't. And if Cloverway doesn't want them to be lovers in the dub, then they aren't. Author's intentions are canon.
My point was, more often than not it's the anti-dubbies who raise the issue. Most dub fans aren't even aware of it. There are a few, but annoying fangirls are not a phenomenon unique to the dub.

Author's intentions shouldn't be respected when the intent was to oppress and censor. That's a coward's argument.

Shintoism is regarded as a religion, and is an important factor in the series. How else would someone explain Rei's psychic abilities? Magic? Witchcraft? Oh noez! That's evil! Think criticism against Harry Potter for an example.

Besides, how many people would actually be offended by a character in an anime series practicing shintoism? Can you seriously see these poor eleven year olds traumatized for life because of that? Kids play GTA:SA, Bully, Halo, God of War, etc, they watch WWE, boxing, Rambo, South Park, etc, in fact, their parents more often than not approve of this, and you think homosexuality, or a different religion, is going to screw them up?

I don't see what Harry Potter or a bunch of violent video games have to do with the point I brought up. And the dub never makes any attempt to censor the use of magic. How could they, it's a magical girl cartoon. But they did take out a lot of religious references. Maybe it was just because kids wouldn't know what Shintoism was. I don't know why, but they did. They're not taking out the lesbians to force religion on people. They're just taking out anything they think could possibly offend anyone. (Like, for example, changing "Black Lady" to "Wicked Lady" to avoid looking racist... even though Black Lady is white. -_-; )


They tried to remove the lesbians to cater to the wishes of people who were forcing religion on other people.
Also, Black Lady isn't white.

It's Cloverway/DiC we complain about here because they're relevant to the boards, but it's not just them. Think Fox News for example. Is there any reason why one wouldn't want to broadcast things 'as-is'? And yes, Fox News = filtered news. Even CNN airs different stuff in the US than it does here in NL. I've seen it with my own two eyes.

All news is biased, not just Fox. The vast majority of American news sources have a liberal slant; Fox for some reason get singled out because it's one of the few with a conservative slant.
The news is supposed to be reporting actual events. Sailor Moon is fiction.

Fiction impacts reality, and "the other side does it too" isn't much of an argument. Besides which, the alleged "liberal slant" of the news is highly trumped-up by conservatives who like to play the victim.

Because handicapped people or interraciality were never present in the original series in the first place (and that excludes Pluto's apparent tan).

I'm upset about the politics behind the decision if you really want an answer to that question. The 'well-being for the kids' is a beautiful illusion and pretty much your average carte blanche argument, much like 'fighting terrorism' has become lately.

So you'll admit that you're upset primarily because it's different from the Japanese series.

This demonstrates a basic lack of reading comprehension. Zyppora absolutely destroyed my argument and I didn't even realize it.

Toei got hurt

How so? They made money on the series that they wouldn't have otherwise. You might as well say that Naoko Takeuchi got hurt by the changes the anime made, or that the anime got hurt by the changes PGSM made.

We were both wrong here; the ones who got hurt were all the LGBT teens who didn't get to see a positive portrayal of someone like them.

Ouch. Would you say the same thing if this wasn't about your religion, but your skin color? Discrimination is discrimination you know. Regardless of the reason behind it.

I'd have thought the US had the equality down by now.

Yes I would, because I believe the government should keep their nose out of private business. I would rather have a free society with some unfair discrimination than a dictatorship with absolute equality. The government should never tell anyone what to believe.

The government should protect human rights. There's no such thing as a free society with some unfair discrimination.

Hah, that's plain BS. They're broadcasting on public TV, which means they offer a public service. If what you said was untrue, then I wonder why pr0n isn't being shown on public channels (yes, I know the answer to that, and I'm not actually wondering it).

Watching Sailor Moon is not an essential part of anyone's day that they cannot live without. I don't recall any Right to Unaltered Anime being present in the Constitution. And it's not like lesbians can't watch the show just because there aren't any lesbian couples in it. The only people being supposedly discriminated against are not real.

What an utterly heartless thing to say. Spoken like a person who has never been made to feel invalid for who she is.

The point is that there's discrimination going on. Whether it be based on religion, skin color, or sexual orientation, is irrelevant.

I still don't follow. Cloverway is denying lesbians an essential public service because there is discrimination going on in some weird cult colony in Utah?
And we end with a weak attempt to put words in the mouth of a person who was far more patient with me than I deserved.

[Zyppora]

yumecosmos said:

Actually I'm not so sure if we wouldn't. I'm pissed at them because they changed Zoicite into a female for example, but the only reason I'm not unhappy about their relationship not existing in Naoko's original works is because the manga didn't give them any kind of personality at all it seemed. They were like the daily enemies, only appearing for a quick attack and then being disposed of, whereas in the anime they had more airtime, one could get to know them better, etc.

In that case, why do I never see anyone posting topics about whether it was fair of Toei to make the Starlights into men?

I'm pretty sure we would have had such discussions if the manga had been as popular as the sub had been.

yumecosmos said:

Do the Shitennou have to be in a relationship to have a personality? >.>

Now you're connecting two unrelated things (forgot the correct term for such a fallacy -.-)

yumecosmos said:

I thought they had plenty of personality in the manga. (Peppermint Storm gives a great analysis of them ^.^ )

I didn't think so, but I guess that's a personal thing.

yumecosmos said:

I still don't see why making Zoisite gay and a backstabber and Nephrite's enemy was acceptable, but making him a woman wasn't. If Toei had been the one to make him into a woman, would you be complaining?

Probably not, but like I said, had the manga been more popular and widespread, I'm pretty sure there would have been pplz to complain about that as well.

yumecosmos said:

Sorry, but I really don't understand that argument. I know the license has since expired, but Cloverway held it at the time it was aired. And there's no support for the claim that Toei locked down the lisences because they were "butchered." If that were the case, why would they have let it go over several years and four seasons?

As you so clearly state in the next quote block, it could well be a financial motivation to let it run as long as it had. Besides that, reorganization in the top of a company usually goes hand-in-hand with drastic changes in company policies and extended licenses, so it could have been that as well. Plenty of explanations really.

yumecosmos said:

There are plenty of other explanations. It was probably a financial issue. I don't think Toei, or any company, would be so noble as to make a decision that would cause them to lose money just to preserve the integrity of a fifteen-year-old series which they themselves altered heavily when they adapted it from the manga.

I must agree that the fillerup eps get annoying, but as far as I've read the manga, I must admit they didn't stray too much from the essence in the anime.

yumecosmos said:

If DiC and Cloverway weren't allowed to make any changes to the series, I doubt they would have gotten away with it for as long as the series has gone on. And I don't know why Toei would include such a demand in their contract. I've never heard of any other anime that wasn't allowed to be changed when it was adapted into English.

Neither have I, but that's mainly because I (we?) didn't really care to find out And if there was no such clause, then there should have been one if you ask me. Besides that, I doubt any of the series we get here from the US are licensed under a 'butcher-as-you-please' license.

yumecosmos said:

Unless you believe that Cloverway is supporting incest, the fact that they made the change indicates that they intended them not to be lovers. They've gone to great lengths (such as the aforementioned "Brad" comment) to make it appear that they aren't. And if Cloverway doesn't want them to be lovers in the dub, then they aren't. Author's intentions are canon.

HAH! But Cloverway was NEVER the author! They were the editor/dubber/butcher!

yumecosmos said:

My point was, more often than not it's the anti-dubbies who raise the issue. Most dub fans aren't even aware of it. There are a few, but annoying fangirls are not a phenomenon unique to the dub.

Naturally it's anti-dubbies who raise the issue. The dubbies don't know the original, so they have no issue to raise in the first place:
Dubbie knows A.
Anti-dubbie knows A and B, and also knows A is wrong and B is right.
Dubbie says A.
Anti-dubbie says B.
Discussion ensues.

The real problem arises when the dubbie gets stubborn and wants nothing to do with B, even if only to learn the POV of the anti-dubbie (and yes, I've met plenty of those dubbies). Do you think it's okay for someone to be ignorant? What good is education if that would be accepted?

yumecosmos said:

I don't see what Harry Potter or a bunch of violent video games have to do with the point I brought up.

Just pointing out that it's rather ridiculous to consider a (reference to a) religion, race or sexuality that's not mainstream to be offending.

yumecosmos said:

And the dub never makes any attempt to censor the use of magic. How could they, it's a magical girl cartoon. But they did take out a lot of religious references. Maybe it was just because kids wouldn't know what Shintoism was.

Why would they want kids to not gain such knowledge? (yes, that's an opening to a stray discussion, and I'm aware of it).

yumecosmos said:

So you'll admit that you're upset primarily because it's different from the Japanese series.

Naturally. Who wouldn't be?

yumecosmos said:

How so? They made money on the series that they wouldn't have otherwise. You might as well say that Naoko Takeuchi got hurt by the changes the anime made, or that the anime got hurt by the changes PGSM made.

She actually claimed to be unhappy about what happened to StarS, so not only might I say it, I do say it I'm unaware of her views on PGSM though.

yumecosmos said:

Yes I would, because I believe the government should keep their nose out of private business. I would rather have a free society with some unfair discrimination than a dictatorship with absolute equality. The government should never tell anyone what to believe.

Ouch. Even I learned this from US history (and I never had that much of it in class). I certainly hope your claims are based on lack of information, rather than judgement thereof.

Restaurants offer a public service, so 'private' only goes so far in that example. And again you're connecting two unrelated things, namely dictatorship and equality. If you'd have said communism, I would have given you the benefit of the doubt I think, but I don't consider a country a dictatorship when they keep discrimination strictly to those cases where it actually benefits the community.

yumecosmos said:

Watching Sailor Moon is not an essential part of anyone's day that they cannot live without. I don't recall any Right to Unaltered Anime being present in the Constitution. And it's not like lesbians can't watch the show just because there aren't any lesbian couples in it. The only people being supposedly discriminated against are not real.

Sailor Moon being an essential part of one's day is irrelevant. It's the principle that counts. By denying the 'truth' the audience is being misled. Do you think it's acceptable that people are being misled in general (so not from a Sailor Moon/anime POV per say)?

And what gives a dubbing company the right to decide what I think is best for my children (should I have any)?

And if I do interpret the ways of your current gov't correctly, lesbians aren't supposed to have the kind of rights heterosexuals have. Today's debates are about the right to get wed, but I can't help but wonder that should it have been plausible and feasible, there'd be HB's to deny them TV, electricity or even access to knowledge in general.

yumecosmos said:

The point is that there's discrimination going on. Whether it be based on religion, skin color, or sexual orientation, is irrelevant.

I still don't follow. Cloverway is denying lesbians an essential public service because there is discrimination going on in some weird cult colony in Utah?

See my above comments: I don't think it's fair, or morally acceptable to withhold people from anything, least of all knowledge, to take away that (or any other) choice from them. If you disagree with me, then I think quoting you will do: dictatorship.

[yumecosmos]

I said that IF equality requires a dictatorship, then I'd rather not have equality. I don't mean in laws--of course there should be equality there. But in individual people's minds, they should be allowed to make whatever discriminations they want, justified or not, because otherwise the government is telling people what to think.

Restaurants are private if they are not owned by or funded by the government. Just because they're a "service industry" does not mean they have to extend their services to everyone. The same goes for private schools--they can turn kids away because they're gay or because they're black or because they're not Jewish or any other reason they want, as long as they aren't getting money (directly) from the government.

Okay, I'm going to say it one more time. Sailor. Moon. Is. Not. Real. There is no truth to be denied because there was no truth to the story in the first place.

The dubbing company has a right to decide what they air because they own the show. Since they translated and altered it, I'm calling them the authors of this version. If parents think it's bad for their kids, they can not let them watch it. What gives you the right to tell the company that owns the show what is best to show to everyone's children?

By law, Lesbians have the same rights heterosexuals have. You can't discriminate against them in employment or education or other public services. The only debate we're currently having is with the marriage amendment, which, similar to Cloverway's decision, is financially motivated: they don't want to give tax breaks to gay marriages. The government will find any excuse they can not to give you money. Lesbians are not unique in that regard.
I personally think the government should never have been allowed to be involved in marriage at all, but that's a whole different debate...

All of this is wrong in both the factual and moral sense. Discrimination based on a protected class is illegal in the USA and many other countries, as it should be, because without it we get Jim Crow. I failed to understand that human societies don't naturally gravitate toward equality and justice. People in power hang on to power, and it's up to people with moral fiber to challenge that.

As for the ludicrous claim (no doubt repeated from some conservative tract) that lesbians enjoy "the same rights" as everyone else by law, that reasoning only works if one assumes that the things straight people have by default aren't really rights. Because it's not straight people who get hurt if those rights aren't protected. Just more circular logic to defend entrenched homophobia.

[Zyppora]

yumecosmos said:

I said that IF equality requires a dictatorship, then I'd rather not have equality.

Naturally, but you presented the relation as if it were intrinsic, which it's not

yumecosmos said:

I don't mean in laws--of course there should be equality there. But in individual people's minds, they should be allowed to make whatever discriminations they want, justified or not, because otherwise the government is telling people what to think.

Yes, everyone's allowed to think in whatever way they want about whatever. Sounds pretty clear to me.

What about saying what you want? Is that allowed? There's freedom of speech, but I suggest picking a 'random' audience (PD, FBI HQ, or similar), and vocalizing 'random' statements (bomb attacks, plane hijackings, or similar) and see if freedom of speech is your good right.

Then of course, there's acting towards what you want. I don't think I need to give examples on these to show you my point, right?

yumecosmos said:

Restaurants are private if they are not owned by or funded by the government. Just because they're a "service industry" does not mean they have to extend their services to everyone.

Owned by the gov't or not, a restaurant('s owner) can always be held responsible for their actions. If they bounce a person because of the person's race, they have a legal problem. Being private in whatever way is irrelevant in that manner.

yumecosmos said:

The same goes for private schools--they can turn kids away because they're gay or because they're black or because they're not Jewish or any other reason they want, as long as they aren't getting money (directly) from the government.

I'm not sure about the US, but here in NL private schools will have to come up with a REALLY good reason to reject someone, and sexuality or race are generally not good enough. Religion is a special case because of the protected state that religion has here (something I also oppose btw).

yumecosmos said:

Okay, I'm going to say it one more time. Sailor. Moon. Is. Not. Real. There is no truth to be denied because there was no truth to the story in the first place.

Like I said: is being real relevant to the discussion at hand? If this was truly your point of view then why not state it from the very beginning?

yumecosmos said:

The dubbing company has a right to decide what they air because they own the show.

I disagree:
What if I own a dubbing company and do a 1-on-1 conversion from Jap to Eng on, say, Bible Black? You think I could get that aired on national TV in the US? Say there's an opening on prime time for kicks

yumecosmos said:

Since they translated and altered it, I'm calling them the authors of this version.

Google's definition of author:
writer: writes (books or stories or articles or the like) professionally (for pay)

Cloverway/DiC never wrote Sailor Moon, hence they're not the authors.

yumecosmos said:

If parents think it's bad for their kids, they can not let them watch it.

That's my point exactly. Does that not cancel the initial point of changing them in the dub?

yumecosmos said:

What gives you the right to tell the company that owns the show what is best to show to everyone's children?

Wait, where did I claim to tell any company about what is best for everyone's children in any way? I'm just expressing my discontentment about the changes made. As far as I know I'm perfectly entitled to my opinion.

yumecosmos said:

By law, Lesbians have the same rights heterosexuals have. You can't discriminate against them in employment or education or other public services.

Wait, that includes the above-mentioned restaurants right? Didn't you say something completely the opposite of that earlier?

yumecosmos said:

The only debate we're currently having is with the marriage amendment, which, similar to Cloverway's decision, is financially motivated: they don't want to give tax breaks to gay marriages. The government will find any excuse they can not to give you money. Lesbians are not unique in that regard.
I personally think the government should never have been allowed to be involved in marriage at all, but that's a whole different debate...

Ah yes, they truly don't care about whether or not it's only homosexuals that get hit by it, they do it solely for the money, right? Funny how they try their hardest to make it look like the reason is homosexuality when it's clear to the world that they're greedy anyway.