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Post by Lethal[x]Rose on Jul 6, 2007 9:50:44 GMT -5
Haruka and Michiru: Does it really matter? One of the controversies surrounding the dubbing the S series, and the reason why it will be either severly hacked or not dubbed at all is the "couple" of Haruka and Michiru. Do you think that the relationship of Haruka & Michiru being changed from "lovers" to 'Cousins" really matters in the whole story line of Sailor Moon? And do you think it was fair of DiC to change that relationship at all? Here also is a newspaper article I found discussing the Haruka Michiru dilemma: [Link: i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/IceSenshi01/Artical-1.jpg](Here is a site where the Article was found on ninjax2000.tripod.com/articles/handm.html)
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Post by Zyppora on Jul 6, 2007 11:35:54 GMT -5
Do you think that the relationship of Haruka & Michiru being changed from "lovers" to 'Cousins" really matters in the whole story line of Sailor Moon? And do you think it was fair of DiC to change that relationship at all? Yes, and no. Yes, I think that the changing lovers to cousins matters greatly, not so much in the S storyline, but especially later on in the final episodes of StarS. Quite a few scenes (some of which have been cut out by the dub, others were never dubbed at all) make perfect sense when one regards them as lovers, but are mind-twisting when they're cousins. And no, I don't think it was fair of DiC to change them. What was the motivation? Homosexuality is a sin? That's plain reli bullshit. It could harm the kids? Kids are more openminded than adults are. Trying to keep them from ever seeing what reality's about will do them more harm when they're grown up than good. DiC can do whatever they want to a series they produce. However, regarding Sailor Moon, they never produced anything. They just butchered. And butchering is bad.
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Post by Lethal[x]Rose on Jul 6, 2007 12:05:23 GMT -5
Do you think that the relationship of Haruka & Michiru being changed from "lovers" to 'Cousins" really matters in the whole story line of Sailor Moon? And do you think it was fair of DiC to change that relationship at all? Yes, and no. Yes, I think that the changing lovers to cousins matters greatly, not so much in the S storyline, but especially later on in the final episodes of StarS. Quite a few scenes (some of which have been cut out by the dub, others were never dubbed at all) make perfect sense when one regards them as lovers, but are mind-twisting when they're cousins. And no, I don't think it was fair of DiC to change them. What was the motivation? Homosexuality is a sin? That's plain reli bullshit. It could harm the kids? Kids are more openminded than adults are. Trying to keep them from ever seeing what reality's about will do them more harm when they're grown up than good. DiC can do whatever they want to a series they produce. However, regarding Sailor Moon, they never produced anything. They just butchered. And butchering is bad. WoW Very well said Zyppora!
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Post by Patrick Barron on Jul 6, 2007 12:46:30 GMT -5
Well they did do good job of altering their relationship. Even I was fooled. I believe it necessary for the intended target audience of viewer being (estimated 11 to 14 years of age).
While I do think that it might not have been appropriate for the younger audience; I still do not agree with how it was censored.
Censory causes blindness.
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Post by nekosenshi on Jul 6, 2007 13:15:13 GMT -5
Do you think that the relationship of Haruka & Michiru being changed from "lovers" to 'Cousins" really matters in the whole story line of Sailor Moon? And do you think it was fair of DiC to change that relationship at all? Yes, and no. Yes, I think that the changing lovers to cousins matters greatly, not so much in the S storyline, but especially later on in the final episodes of StarS. Quite a few scenes (some of which have been cut out by the dub, others were never dubbed at all) make perfect sense when one regards them as lovers, but are mind-twisting when they're cousins. And no, I don't think it was fair of DiC to change them. What was the motivation? Homosexuality is a sin? That's plain reli bullshit. It could harm the kids? Kids are more openminded than adults are. Trying to keep them from ever seeing what reality's about will do them more harm when they're grown up than good. DiC can do whatever they want to a series they produce. However, regarding Sailor Moon, they never produced anything. They just butchered. And butchering is bad. Yay, Zyppora!
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Post by Zyppora on Jul 6, 2007 16:49:43 GMT -5
I believe it necessary for the intended target audience of viewer being (estimated 11 to 14 years of age). While I do think that it might not have been appropriate for the younger audience; Why do you think that?
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Post by yumecosmos on Jul 19, 2007 2:07:21 GMT -5
This comment has been deleted by the author, because it was homophobic right-wing nonsense and no one should be subjected to reading it.
Hateful behavior should have social consequences. nekosenshi is correct, nobody has the "right" to be offended by who somebody else loves.
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Post by nekosenshi on Jul 19, 2007 12:38:37 GMT -5
I disagree. Homosexuality shouldn't offend anyone. And all 11-14 year olds know about sex. Guess I can't put down my political ideals. I'm not ashamed about that though. I'm proud to be liberal.
It is true however, that fanon has screwed up canon. I'm not into SM fan fiction at all. Usagi leave Mamoru for Dimande? WTF?
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Post by yumecosmos on Jul 19, 2007 13:57:10 GMT -5
But that's only your opinion. To tell people that they do not have the right to be offended by something is censorship in itself.
All 11-14 year olds do not know about sex. My parents didn't really discuss it with me until I was around 16.
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Post by Ayen on Jul 20, 2007 23:17:06 GMT -5
I never cared much that they turn them into cousins, I just hate the bad dubbing of quotes, and adding of words when they never said anything to begin with. Though it's not like you ever see them kissing in the anime, but back then in like what? the early 90's? I think gay was a much more big a deal back then, hence changing the characters to cousins... I never been offended by gay couples personally. I annoy them the same as I do with everyone else. ;D
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Post by nekosenshi on Jul 24, 2007 17:42:25 GMT -5
But that's only your opinion. To tell people that they do not have the right to be offended by something is censorship in itself. All 11-14 year olds do not know about sex. My parents didn't really discuss it with me until I was around 16. I guess it's censorship in a sense. But how would you like it if someone was offended by your heterosexuality? 16? Really? Wow. My 6th grade class took a mandatory class called Family Health, in which sex was discussed openly. I guess things are different in different places. I'm from California.
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Post by Zyppora on Jul 25, 2007 9:36:43 GMT -5
yumecosmos: I agree with most of what you're saying, but I want to highlight a few things. "Gay characters are almost unheard of on television?" Uh, what about Bert and Ernie? Or SpongeBob and Patrick? I presume you've heard of the ruckus Teletubbies caused in Poland because of one of them walking around with a purse? It's been ages since I've seen Bert and Ernie, and I've never seen SpongeBob, so I can't judge those, but I don't presume they treat each other the way Haruka and Michiru do. I say it was perfectly "fair" for the dub companies to make any changes they wanted. Let's put down our high-minded morals and political ideals for a moment and talk about the real world. Sorry, but that's not true. Ignoring 'morality' was never the intention, in fact, they wanted to abide the morals that their target audience held high: no homosexuality. I never said I didn't understand the reasons for the change. It's just one moral vs. another, and since money was a factor, they went with whatever would be most beneficial. The political ideals were only indirectly a factor though, through the audience (and their parents). I'm sorry, but all this fan outrage over changes made to their beloved Japanese canon is rather hypocritical. Fans write stories where the senshi betray Usagi and Chibiusa is Rei's daughter and Usagi leaves Mamoru for Demand. Fans read "evidence" of a romance between SailorVenus and Kunzite from their positioning on the dub VHS covers (no joke.) I know because I've done it too. Fanon has butchered the canon way more than the dub companies ever will, so I don't see why we complain so much about alterations to a version most of us don't even care about. We complain (yes I'm going to explain it to you ) because of those few little lines that appear above (almost) every fanfic: I DO NOT OWN SAILOR MOON OR ANY OF THEIR CHARACTERS. Fanfic is NEVER EVER brought to the reader as if it were the real thing, while the dub IS. Naturally they couldn't air it subbed, because of the American habit of actually watching a show in their own language (which is a direct result of the US being one of the biggest TV/movie producers). Germany has the same kind of 'craving for dubs', but I regard that more as an excuse than a reason, especially considering they changed a LOT more than just the relationship, including highly insignificant stuff like Crossroads High School 'n stuff like that. How many of us actually care about the dub's storyline, other than to occasionally whine about how it was different from the original? It's not the dub per say, it's the fruit of the dub really. Dubbies that come here claiming that 'Michelle and Amara are really cousins' for example. Does anyone really believe that America's youth will all become evil religious totalitarians because they didn't get to see the lesbians on Sailor Moon? While we're at it, why don't we worry that they'll all become racists because there are no black or hispanic senshi, or that they'll all become Social Darwinists because none of them are handicapped? Ever heard of one George Dubya Bush? Or Republicans in general? Evil? Perhaps. I guess if wisdom ('enlightenment') is the road to heaven, then stupidity must be the road to hell. Religious? No comment required. Totalitarian? Dunno. Judge for yourself. Racists? Well, not really I guess. Social Darwinists, hmm. That's a tough one actually. I'd like to consider him the product of today's struggle against evolution (had natural selection been given the chance ... ). We're talking about love here, which is widely promoted by christian religion. And since love is blind, as they say, why should it matter that they're both women? Next, we're talking about Japanese girls here. Ever seen a Hispanic or black Japanese girl? Lastly, we're talking about superheros. Ever heard of a physically challenged superhero (and I'm not counting DareDevil or the Mantis). Besides that, Saban (or whoever it was) wanted to turn Ami into a handicapped girl. I think a lot of pplz would have NOT been happy. It doesn't matter if I'd like it or not, because it's their belief, not mine. I suppose it would be sort of like someone being offended by my religion. I wouldn't like it, and I wouldn't change for them. But I still don't have the right to tell them they can't be offended by it, and I wouldn't label them as a bad person based on that one belief. It's a free country. I'd actually consider that discrimination based on religion. What if this person that's offended by your religion denies you entry to, for example, a restaurant? Or 'public' transportation? I'm not saying you can't just turn away and not look back, but I've seen a documentary about a community in Utah where only highly religious pplz live, and anyone coming too close will get chased away by the 'keepers'/'guards'.
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Post by nekosenshi on Jul 25, 2007 12:11:54 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if I'd like it or not, because it's their belief, not mine. I suppose it would be sort of like someone being offended by my religion. I wouldn't like it, and I wouldn't change for them. But I still don't have the right to tell them they can't be offended by it, and I wouldn't label them as a bad person based on that one belief. It's a free country. I never said I'd regard them as 'bad'. I'd regard them as narrow-minded.
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Post by yumecosmos on Jul 25, 2007 15:38:48 GMT -5
Sorry, but that's not true. Ignoring 'morality' was never the intention, in fact, they wanted to abide the morals that their target audience held high: no homosexuality. I never said I didn't understand the reasons for the change. It's just one moral vs. another, and since money was a factor, they went with whatever would be most beneficial. The political ideals were only indirectly a factor though, through the audience (and their parents). You still can't say that it's not fair just because they made a decision you don't agree with. You don't own it, they do. Morality is not an issue. Let me put this in perspective. If the dub had changed the storyline so that Ami/Makoto was canon, do you think we'd be having this discussion?Here we go again, defending the poor helpless corporation against those mean fans threatening them with demands for equality. Of course morality is an issue. How can a person who believes in God say that? We complain (yes I'm going to explain it to you ) because of those few little lines that appear above (almost) every fanfic: I DO NOT OWN SAILOR MOON OR ANY OF THEIR CHARACTERS. Fanfic is NEVER EVER brought to the reader as if it were the real thing, while the dub IS. Naturally they couldn't air it subbed, because of the American habit of actually watching a show in their own language (which is a direct result of the US being one of the biggest TV/movie producers). Germany has the same kind of 'craving for dubs', but I regard that more as an excuse than a reason, especially considering they changed a LOT more than just the relationship, including highly insignificant stuff like Crossroads High School 'n stuff like that. But that doesn't matter. They own it and they can do whatever the heck they want with it, just like fanfic writers can do whatever they want in their own story. The characters are not real, the events being portrayed are not real and never were. There's no accountability in a fictional universe. If Cloverway had wanted to change it so that Ami was a male [transphobic slur redacted], that would have been within their rights. If they wanted to change it so that the story took place in France, that would be within their rights. If they wanted to change it so that Usagi and Rei were lesbians and Mamoru didn't exist and Haruna-sensei was actually Beryl, that would still be perfectly "fair." It doesn't matter how sweeping or how ludicrous the changes are, they own the series and they have the right to do it. (And actually, Crossroads was not such a bad translation since the "Juu" in Juuban can also mean a cross shape.)The utter lack of any moral backbone here is shocking. Of course content creators have some accountability, but it's not about the fictional universe. It's about the real fans interacting with it. It's not the dub per say, it's the fruit of the dub really. Dubbies that come here claiming that 'Michelle and Amara are really cousins' for example. Michelle and Amara are cousins. Michelle and Amara are not Michiru and Haruka. And it wasn't a dubbie who started this topic.This is bogus. They can't be separated. Ever heard of one George Dubya Bush? Or Republicans in general? Evil? Perhaps. I guess if wisdom ('enlightenment') is the road to heaven, then stupidity must be the road to hell. Religious? No comment required. Totalitarian? Dunno. Judge for yourself. Racists? Well, not really I guess. Social Darwinists, hmm. That's a tough one actually. I'd like to consider him the product of today's struggle against evolution (had natural selection been given the chance ... ). There isn't much mention of religion in the dub Sailor Moon, because that risks offending people as much as homosexuality or racism would. They took out Rei's Shinto beliefs and all mention of T.A. being a Catholic school, and changed Michiru's (kind of weird and random) comment about Adam and Eve to something stupid about her "first kiss with Brad, the cutest guy in the whole school." -_-; I happen to be a Republican and I voted for Bush. So I guess that makes me an evil, ignorant, totalitarian racist too.And now for a bit of "I'm just as oppressed because people hate me for my bigotry." Yes, 2007 Yume, you are an evil, ignorant, totalitarian racist. We're talking about love here, which is widely promoted by christian religion. And since love is blind, as they say, why should it matter that they're both women? Next, we're talking about Japanese girls here. Ever seen a Hispanic or black Japanese girl? Lastly, we're talking about superheros. Ever heard of a physically challenged superhero (and I'm not counting DareDevil or the Mantis). Besides that, Saban (or whoever it was) wanted to turn Ami into a handicapped girl. I think a lot of pplz would have NOT been happy. I can't change what the Bible says. I don't know why the laws are that way and if I had a choice I wouldn't want them to be that way. I still believe that God loves lesbians just as much as everyone else. But all this is beside the point. Why should Cloverway Entertainment be responsible for instilling morality or ideals of diversity in America's children? You still haven't answered my question. Why is it okay to exclude other races or handicapped people, for whatever reason, but it's such a travesty to not have lesbians? I doubt that children will gain their understanding of the nature of love from a cartoon. Are you really concerned for the well-being of the kids, or are you just upset at the politics behind the decision?Wow, just wow. I was the one who only cared about politics and not the well-being of children (some of whom are gay, but of course that didn't occur to me.) This argument is idiotic; of course you can't include every single marginalized group in one show but erasing the representation that was there is still a problem. I'd actually consider that discrimination based on religion. What if this person that's offended by your religion denies you entry to, for example, a restaurant? Or 'public' transportation? I'm not saying you can't just turn away and not look back, but I've seen a documentary about a community in Utah where only highly religious pplz live, and anyone coming too close will get chased away by the 'keepers'/'guards'. That's a different situation. Nobody's being denied anything here. Cloverway doesn't have to make Amara and Michelle lovers if they don't want to, and it's not hurting anyone if they don't. The restaurant would be entirely within their rights to deny me entry because they are a private business. Cloverway is not a government organization, nor are they offering a public service, so the public transportation analogy doesn't fit. That Utah thing is an extreme example and I'm not really sure what it has to do with the discussion at hand.Except it actually is hurting lots of people and the analogy was totally relevant, since it's the same forces driving both.
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Post by Zyppora on Jul 25, 2007 22:22:16 GMT -5
Sorry, but that's not true. Ignoring 'morality' was never the intention, in fact, they wanted to abide the morals that their target audience held high: no homosexuality. I never said I didn't understand the reasons for the change. It's just one moral vs. another, and since money was a factor, they went with whatever would be most beneficial. The political ideals were only indirectly a factor though, through the audience (and their parents). You still can't say that it's not fair just because they made a decision you don't agree with. You don't own it, they do. Morality is not an issue. Let me put this in perspective. If the dub had changed the storyline so that Ami/Makoto was canon, do you think we'd be having this discussion? Actually I'm not so sure if we wouldn't. I'm pissed at them because they changed Zoicite into a female for example, but the only reason I'm not unhappy about their relationship not existing in Naoko's original works is because the manga didn't give them any kind of personality at all it seemed. They were like the daily enemies, only appearing for a quick attack and then being disposed of, whereas in the anime they had more airtime, one could get to know them better, etc. On the morality thing: it very much is an issue, like I pointed out. If it wasn't for (US) morals being so different from the morals of the country of origin, there would have been no need to change it, or would there? One last thing: noone but Toei currently holds any kind of right to Sailor Moon and any of its franchise. I'd like to think they locked every license because of how it got buthered abroad, but that's just my opinion. I don't think there was ever a reason stated for the lockdown. But that doesn't matter. They own it and they can do whatever the heck they want with it, just like fanfic writers can do whatever they want in their own story. The characters are not real, the events being portrayed are not real and never were. There's no accountability in a fictional universe. If Cloverway had wanted to change it so that Ami was a male transvestite, that would have been within their rights. If they wanted to change it so that the story took place in France, that would be within their rights. If they wanted to change it so that Usagi and Rei were lesbians and Mamoru didn't exist and Haruna-sensei was actually Beryl, that would still be perfectly "fair." It doesn't matter how sweeping or how ludicrous the changes are, they own the series and they have the right to do it. (And actually, Crossroads was not such a bad translation since the "Juu" in Juuban can also mean a cross shape.) Crossroads was an example of what I meant: changes that hardly affect the storyline or morality of the series, such as name changes. Besides that, I don't believe they ever had that kind of right. The only right they had was to air it and earn money over it. Then again, I never read the contracts, but how else would you explain Toei freezing the licenses? Michelle and Amara are cousins. Michelle and Amara are not Michiru and Haruka. And it wasn't a dubbie who started this topic. Even though their body language SCREAMS romantic love. And I never said anything about a dubbie starting this topic, just that they're here on SMO There isn't much mention of religion in the dub Sailor Moon, because that risks offending people as much as homosexuality or racism would. They took out Rei's Shinto beliefs and all mention of T.A. being a Catholic school, and changed Michiru's (kind of weird and random) comment about Adam and Eve to something stupid about her "first kiss with Brad, the cutest guy in the whole school." -_-; I happen to be a Republican and I voted for Bush. So I guess that makes me an evil, ignorant, totalitarian racist too. Shintoism is regarded as a religion, and is an important factor in the series. How else would someone explain Rei's psychic abilities? Magic? Witchcraft? Oh noez! That's evil! Think criticism against Harry Potter for an example. Besides, how many people would actually be offended by a character in an anime series practicing shintoism? Can you seriously see these poor eleven year olds traumatized for life because of that? Kids play GTA:SA, Bully, Halo, God of War, etc, they watch WWE, boxing, Rambo, South Park, etc, in fact, their parents more often than not approve of this, and you think homosexuality, or a different religion, is going to screw them up? I can't change what the Bible says. I don't know why the laws are that way and if I had a choice I wouldn't want them to be that way. I still believe that God loves lesbians just as much as everyone else. But all this is beside the point. Why should Cloverway Entertainment be responsible for instilling morality or ideals of diversity in America's children? It's Cloverway/DiC we complain about here because they're relevant to the boards, but it's not just them. Think Fox News for example. Is there any reason why one wouldn't want to broadcast things 'as-is'? And yes, Fox News = filtered news. Even CNN airs different stuff in the US than it does here in NL. I've seen it with my own two eyes. You still haven't answered my question. Why is it okay to exclude other races or handicapped people, for whatever reason, but it's such a travesty to not have lesbians? Because handicapped people or interraciality were never present in the original series in the first place (and that excludes Pluto's apparent tan). I doubt that children will gain their understanding of the nature of love from a cartoon. Are you really concerned for the well-being of the kids, or are you just upset at the politics behind the decision? I'm upset about the politics behind the decision if you really want an answer to that question. The 'well-being for the kids' is a beautiful illusion and pretty much your average carte blanche argument, much like 'fighting terrorism' has become lately. I'd actually consider that discrimination based on religion. What if this person that's offended by your religion denies you entry to, for example, a restaurant? Or 'public' transportation? I'm not saying you can't just turn away and not look back, but I've seen a documentary about a community in Utah where only highly religious pplz live, and anyone coming too close will get chased away by the 'keepers'/'guards'. That's a different situation. Nobody's being denied anything here. Cloverway doesn't have to make Amara and Michelle lovers if they don't want to, and it's not hurting anyone if they don't. Toei got hurt The restaurant would be entirely within their rights to deny me entry because they are a private business. Ouch. Would you say the same thing if this wasn't about your religion, but your skin color? Discrimination is discrimination you know. Regardless of the reason behind it. I'd have thought the US had the equality down by now. Cloverway is not a government organization, nor are they offering a public service, so the public transportation analogy doesn't fit. Hah, that's plain BS. They're broadcasting on public TV, which means they offer a public service. If what you said was untrue, then I wonder why pr0n isn't being shown on public channels (yes, I know the answer to that, and I'm not actually wondering it). That Utah thing is an extreme example and I'm not really sure what it has to do with the discussion at hand. The point is that there's discrimination going on. Whether it be based on religion, skin color, or sexual orientation, is irrelevant. ((Gah, apologies. Accidentally hit modify instead of quote. Attempting to revert... ~Yume))
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