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Post by Creshosk on Sept 19, 2004 14:24:14 GMT -5
As far as I know, Greek/Roman mythology applies to all of the Inner Senshi: Moon: Selene, goddess of the moon Mercury: Hermes, messenger of the gods Mars: Ares, god of war Jupiter: Zeus, ruler of gods, god of thunder Venus: Aphrodite, goddess of love and beauty Saturn: Chronos, father of gods, god of time Uranus: [Uranus is Greek], god of the skies Neptune: Poseidon, god of the seas Pluto: Hades, god of the dead, ruler of the underworld As you can see, the only thing mixed up here is Saturn and Pluto, but I'm sure Takeuchi-sama had her reasons for doing so. They are not mixed up, as it turns out. Unfortunately, there's the notion that many of the themes from Sailor Moon are based exclusively on Greco-Roman mythology. This is not necessarily true. The truth is that Ms. Takeuchi used mythology and astrology (specifically Western astrology and Eastern astrology) as inspiration. She borrowed many of the ideas and themes from these two sources and worked them into her story. Those who truly understand Greco-Roman mythology, Eastern and Western astrology, and the information pertaining to Sailor Moon should know why Sailor Saturn and Sailor Pluto are fine the way they are. It would be pertinent to look individually at these two characters and see how well their themes and associations fit mythologically and astrologically. According to the anime and manga, Sailor Saturn's powers mainly have to do with silence and destruction. Sailor Saturn's Silence Glaive is often referred to as the chinmoku no kama which means "scythe of silence." The reference to the "scythe" or "sickle" should bring to mind the ancient Italian agricultural and blight deity named Saturnus, better known as Saturn. Saturn's name means "the sower" and he was basically an abstraction that represented the harvest and its destruction. From what we know, he was Etruscan, not necessarily Roman, in origin. If a person was a farmer who lived in or around Rome in the fifth century BC, and his crops were being destroyed by pests or diseases, Saturn would be a god to whom he might wish to pray. Moreover, at around that time (fifth century BC), the Romans noticed that the wars between themselves and other Italian tribes had a devastating effect on agriculture. They established the festival called the Saturnalia and a temple in honor of Saturn. When the Romans came into contact with the Greeks, they were introduced to the cunning, wily, scythe-wielding deity named Cronus. According to the Greek poet Hesiod, Cronus was the youngest child of Uranus and Gaea and a member of a class of immortals called Titans. He managed to overthrew his father Uranus and establish himself as ruler of the universe. Cronus, worried that one of his own children might be able to overthrow him, swallowed each child as soon as it was born. In the painting by the artist Francisco Goya Cronus is called by his Roman name (Saturn) and he's depicted as a monstrous ogre ripping and tearing at the flesh of a (somewhat precocious) child. The story goes on to tell us that Zeus escaped being eaten and later defeated his father after a long and hard battle. According to some versions of the story, Cronus and his Titan comrades were thrown into the depths of Tartarus, the gloomy, abysmal regions below the underworld. Other versions have Zeus actually pardoning Cronus and making him the ruler of the Elysian Fields, which are also called the islands of the blessed. This realm was said to be the small part of the underworld reserved exclusively for a selected few mortals who had lived on earth. The Romans said that the Greek Cronus was the same as their agricultural deity Saturn. In the Hellenistic period, the Stoic philosophers tried to ascertain the original meaning of Cronus' name. The truth is that they were as unsure as we are. Some of them declared that the name Cronus was etymologically related to one of the several Greek words for time, chronos. They justified their claim by stating that just like how Cronus swallowed his children in mythology, "time," or "chronos", eats away at everything. From this confusion, the figure of the bearded and scythe-carrying "Father Time" was born. Scholars and linguists have recently determined that Cronus' name and that Greek word for time, chronos, are not related etymologically. The exact meaning of Cronus' name is unknown, but some etymologists have suggested that it's pre-Greek in origin. Others have suggested that his name was related to the Greek word corone which means "crow." Whatever his name might have meant originally, it's very probable that Cronus was an agricultural deity that was worshipped in Greece. What does Sailor Saturn mean when she says that she's the soldier who also represents birth? Her associations with birth are related to the meaning of her name. In Japanese name Tomoe Hotaru can mean "soil sprouted firefly." The to means "soil" or the element "earth" and the moe means "to sprout." Her surname has to do with being born from the soil. In fact, this name can be seen as an indirect reference to Cronus, Saturn's Greek counterpart. According to the Greek Mythology Link site, "During the reign of Cronos, they say, men did not have children, for at that time, when the universe revolved backwards, all humans came out of the earth and were therefore called autochthonous." In Greek mythology, those who are said to be autochthonous are said to have "sprung from the soil itself." The word comes from the Greek word which means "self" and another Greek word that means "soil." Symbolically, this means that Hotaru () is the firefly who has "sprung from the soil itself" under the rule of Saturn. The word originally referred to those who actually sprang from the soil, but later the word's meaning has been extended to also mean "indigenous" or "native." According to this definition, those who are native to a particular area are said to have actually sprang from that soil.
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Post by Creshosk on Sept 19, 2004 14:31:33 GMT -5
At this point, it would be a good idea to discuss Sailor Pluto as well. Sailor Pluto's most common epithet, in the anime and manga, is henkaku no senshi which means "soldier of change." In fact, the Japanese trading card is number 676 of Sailor Moon SuperS and entitled henkaku no senshi, or "soldier of change." The word "henkaku" can mean different things, but they all have to do with change — "revolution," "upheaval," and "reformation." The Sailor Moon SuperS Movie Memorial Album, calls her the jiku no senshi which means "soldier of space-time." On the other hand, Sailor Pluto has been called the meikai no bannin, which means "guardian of the underworld," in the Sailor Moon R Nakayoshi Anime Album. In the Materials Collection, Takeuchi gives Sailor Pluto the official title meido (jikan no hazama) no bannin which means "guardian of the underworld (between times)."
This reference to the underworld brings to mind the deity who was said to rule it in Greek Mythology, Hades. Scholars have said that his name means "the unseen one." The Greeks often referred to him as Aedoneus or Aides. He was the absolute ruler of the underworld. In fact, even his domain eventually became known as Hades. On the other hand, some versions of the story state that when Cronus was defeated by the Olympians, he was pardoned by Zeus and given the chance to rule the Elysian Fields, a small section of the underworld. Hades was the absolute master of the underworld, but Cronus, according to some, only ruled a small part of it. The Greek poet Hesiod tells us that Hades was the first son born to Cronus and Rhea. He was often thought of as a frightening deity, but he wasn't necessarily evil. At one point, Hades acquired the name "Pluto" which means "the enricher." Precious metals like gold and silver were found underground and, thus, they were said to be from his underworld kingdom. The Romans continued to call him Pluto, but sometimes they would also use the names "Dis" and "Orcus."
We're told that Sailor Pluto is the one who carries the blood of Chronos, the almighty god of time. Chronos is her father. This "god of time" is more of an abstraction than a real anthropomorphic deity. In Greek mythology, Cronus would have been the father of Pluto. Conversely, Hesiod tells us that Pluto was the first son to be born from Cronus and Rhea. The name "Pluto" was also used by the Greeks because it's a Greek name. In Japanese, the name "Cronus" and the Greek word chronos are spelled the same way, kuronosu. There's no way to tell which is which unless it's clarified by context. So, when the Japanese talk about Pluto in mythology, they would say that he was the son of Kuronosu, while Sailor Pluto is the daughter of the god of time, Kuronosu. This word-play is the main reason for Sailor Pluto's association with time and space. Moreover, this is reminiscent of how the Stoics said that Cronus was related to "chronos" which means "time." In Takeuchi's story, Sailor Pluto is one who inherited her father's power of time and space. We know that Sailor Pluto's father is "Chronos" because whenever the name is associated with Kanji, the one that means "time" is always used to disambiguate the Japanese spelling. It is important to be aware that Sailor Pluto has never claimed to be Chronos, the concept of time, or Cronus, the Greek deity.
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Post by Creshosk on Sept 19, 2004 14:32:35 GMT -5
If we wish to call Sailor Pluto "Sailor Saturn" and Sailor Saturn "Sailor Pluto," things wouldn't work out well at all. There's no way that Sailor Saturn could be the daughter of Chronos. The Silence Glaive's epithet is chinmoku no kama which means "scythe of silence." Pluto wasn't known to wield a scythe, so why give her the Silence Glaive? The underworld was often called Hades, but never Cronus. Pluto is associated more with the underworld, so why make Sailor Saturn guardian of the underworld? Those are a few problems the would be created if the themes of these characters were to be switched.
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 19, 2004 14:59:40 GMT -5
while ( true ) { add ( kudos ) ; } Darn, that was long man. They are not mixed up, as it turns out. Unfortunately, there's the notion that many of the themes from Sailor Moon are based exclusively on Greco-Roman mythology. This is not necessarily true. The truth is that Ms. Takeuchi used mythology and astrology (specifically Western astrology and Eastern astrology) as inspiration. She borrowed many of the ideas and themes from these two sources and worked them into her story. Those who truly understand Greco-Roman mythology, Eastern and Western astrology, and the information pertaining to Sailor Moon should know why Sailor Saturn and Sailor Pluto are fine the way they are. It would be pertinent to look individually at these two characters and see how well their themes and associations fit mythologically and astrologically. According to the anime and manga, Sailor Saturn's powers mainly have to do with silence and destruction. Sailor Saturn's Silence Glaive is often referred to as the chinmoku no kama which means "scythe of silence." The reference to the "scythe" or "sickle" should bring to mind the ancient Italian agricultural and blight deity named Saturnus, better known as Saturn. Saturn's name means "the sower" and he was basically an abstraction that represented the harvest and its destruction. From what we know, he was Etruscan, not necessarily Roman, in origin. If a person was a farmer who lived in or around Rome in the fifth century BC, and his crops were being destroyed by pests or diseases, Saturn would be a god to whom he might wish to pray. Moreover, at around that time (fifth century BC), the Romans noticed that the wars between themselves and other Italian tribes had a devastating effect on agriculture. They established the festival called the Saturnalia and a temple in honor of Saturn. The Saturnalia was a seven-day mid-winter festival during which public business was suspended and schools were closed. Parents gave toys to their children and there was a public banquet. Nowadays, as is claimed, this festival is refered to as 'Christmas'. In addition, Chronus/Saturn was also the father of Jupiter, Neptune and Pluto. They represent Air, Water and Death, the three things that Time cannot kill. The fact that Jupiter represents Air, comes from the fact that in Roman mythology, Zeus, is the ruler of the gods (after he beat Chronos), living on the mountain Olympia in Greece. Also, the thunderbolt that was said was Zeus' weapon, was always thrown from the skies. I'm not sure about Chronos eating his own children, but it could very well be true. Zeus did beat Chronos in a fierce battle, after which Chronos was thrown into Tartarus. Tartarus was a world of suffering. It seems that the word 'torture' is etymologically connected to Tartarus, for that is the kind of world that it was. It would seem quite unrealistic that his name is in any way connected to 'crow'. If anything, 'time' would be the correct explanation, as far as I know. Then again, what do I know? Actually, the word 'autochtone' is (rarely) used for people who are born and live in a country. It does indeed come from the Greek word 'autochtonous', which is described above. I'm not too sure on your explanation of the 'sprung from the soil' part. Greek mythology (I seem to remember from high school) tells about how humans came to exist and reproduce. The gods created them as a selfsustaining system, both male and female. It took only one human to reproduce. These creatures were quite strong however, and the gods feared a revolution (as the one of the Titans, who once tried to overcome the gods). Therefor, the gods ripped all the humans apart, so that they would only have a fraction of their original strength. It is said that the scars of this 'ripping apart' process are clear at the abdomens, and the belly button. Also, the gods bent the humans in such a way that their embrace would be reproductive. Perhaps it's the story of the scarabee? The scarabee is a little animal that buries its eggs within the soil called earth, and when they hatch, the young scarabee literally comes forth from the soil. Especially the Egyptians worshipped the scarabees for their self-creating powers, since they did not know that there were eggs planted within the soil before.
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 22, 2004 11:26:30 GMT -5
Just a question about the Pluto-Hades thing, is the word pyrite (which is a mineral that looks like gold) etymologically connected to the word Pluto? It's common for the ancients to make mistakes over chemistry, physics and astronomy. Perhaps they saw pyrite as gold and declared it to be an enricher as well? Pyrite and Pluto basically have the same pronunciation in Japanese: Purito.
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Post by Creshosk on Sept 22, 2004 12:12:14 GMT -5
Just a question about the Pluto-Hades thing, is the word pyrite (which is a mineral that looks like gold) etymologically connected to the word Pluto? It's common for the ancients to make mistakes over chemistry, physics and astronomy. Perhaps they saw pyrite as gold and declared it to be an enricher as well? Pyrite and Pluto basically have the same pronunciation in Japanese: Purito. Latin pyrts, from Greek purts (lithos), fire (stone), flint, from pr, fire. of pa w Of indo-euopeon origin Basically The name pyrite is from the Greek word meaning fire, likely due to the sparks that result when pyrite is struck against steel. This capacity made it popular for use in early firearms such as the wheellock. For this reason I imagine is why Pyrite is associated with Mars. That japanese tie you meantioned is rather odd. Stones such as Pyrite would have their Japanese name used in Japan unless it was a proper name. Outekkouis the japanese word for pyrite it means "Yellow Iron Ore". Pairaito is not the same as puruutoo anyway.
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Post by Alexa on Sept 22, 2004 12:22:27 GMT -5
Please excuse me if i'm wrong or being rude. but I've read a lot of postson this site and it seems that you two (Zyppora and Creshosk)don't like each other.
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Post by Creshosk on Sept 22, 2004 12:43:49 GMT -5
Please excuse me if i'm wrong or being rude. but I've read a lot of postson this site and it seems that you two (Zyppora and Creshosk)don't like each other. Huh? Naw, that's not true, Zyppora and I are good friends. We enjoy deep discusions is all. But I like Zyppora alot. ;D
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 22, 2004 14:31:07 GMT -5
Latin pyrts, from Greek purts (lithos), fire (stone), flint, from pr, fire. of pa w Of indo-euopeon origin Basically The name pyrite is from the Greek word meaning fire, likely due to the sparks that result when pyrite is struck against steel. This capacity made it popular for use in early firearms such as the wheellock. For this reason I imagine is why Pyrite is associated with Mars. That japanese tie you meantioned is rather odd. Stones such as Pyrite would have their Japanese name used in Japan unless it was a proper name. Outekkouis the japanese word for pyrite it means "Yellow Iron Ore". Pairaito is not the same as puruutoo anyway. That's pretty informative, but I do want to correct you that Mars is associated with Ruby, not Pyrite. Please excuse me if i'm wrong or being rude. but I've read a lot of postson this site and it seems that you two (Zyppora and Creshosk)don't like each other. Huh? Naw, that's not true, Zyppora and I are good friends. We enjoy deep discusions is all. But I like Zyppora alot. ;D Like Creshosk said, we're kool with each other. Discussions like these are favored by us personally, and we tend to keep it up because they tend to provide a lot of information to the other members. And you're not rude at all.
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Post by Alexa on Sept 22, 2004 14:34:05 GMT -5
And you're not rude at all. Thankyou! ;D ;D
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Post by Creshosk on Sept 22, 2004 14:45:41 GMT -5
That's pretty informative, but I do want to correct you that Mars is associated with Ruby, not Pyrite. No no. I'm saying that iron pyrite, is associated with the planet Mars. Each planet has several minerals and gemstones associated with it. especially the elements. Mars and Fire go hand in hand in a various number of cultures, mainly due to the red color of it. Of course this red color is due to heavy concentrations of Iron oxide. . or rust. iron pyrite, is iron disulfide, FeS 2. and Iron dioxide is FeO 2.
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 22, 2004 14:47:39 GMT -5
No no. I'm saying that iron pyrite, is associated with the planet Mars. Each planet has several minerals and gemstones associated with it. especially the elements. Mars and Fire go hand in hand in a various number of cultures, mainly due to the red color of it. Of course this red color is due to heavy concentrations of Iron oxide. . or rust. iron pyrite, is iron disulfide, FeS 2. and Iron dioxide is FeO 2. Ohw ... thought you were talking about ... Sailor Mars ... ^^;; My bad.
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Post by Creshosk on Sept 22, 2004 15:10:17 GMT -5
Ohw ... thought you were talking about ... Sailor Mars ... ^^;; My bad. I figured as much. I probably should have specified. Interestingly enough Ruby and Sapphire are the same exact thing, just different colors. Corundum is the crystalline form of aluminium oxide (Al 2O 3) Its called ruby if it's red and all other colors are sapphire. . .
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Post by Zyppora on Sept 23, 2004 0:11:47 GMT -5
I figured as much. I probably should have specified. Interestingly enough Ruby and Sapphire are the same exact thing, just different colors. Corundum is the crystalline form of aluminium oxide (Al 2O 3) Its called ruby if it's red and all other colors are sapphire. . . Yes, the basic atomic structure for both stones is Al 2O 3. However, a ruby is formed by this structure, with Cr, while sapphire has Fe and Ti instead. I don't know the concentrations of said elements.
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Post by Tomoe Hotaru on Sept 30, 2004 17:13:17 GMT -5
Whoa. That was long, Creshosk-sama. Heh.
Also, in the episode 'Self-Awareness as a Soldier! Strength Lies in the Pure Heart!', when Chibiusa is returning to the future, she mentions Chronos being the guardian of time. Keep in mind this is the speech she says in the dub...
"Chronos, guardian of time, open the door of time and space for me. Oh, mysterious guardian of time, help me now to get back to the future. Take me home where I came from. Please guard me, please light up the way and safely guide me through the long passage of time."
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