Kotetsu Murasame
Scout In Training
I haven't much to say other than...It's brilliant!
Posts: 32
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Gothic
May 2, 2004 9:07:16 GMT -5
Post by Kotetsu Murasame on May 2, 2004 9:07:16 GMT -5
I personally think that she might be gothic. I have been infatuated with her since I saw her in one of the subbed vids I ordered. Just wanting to get this out in the open
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Gothic
May 2, 2004 19:27:19 GMT -5
Post by Creshosk on May 2, 2004 19:27:19 GMT -5
I was waiting for someone to broach this subject.
What is goth? The term is often more easily defined by what it is not, rather than what it is. This, coincidentally enough, goes hand-in-hand with its nihilistic associations. The word is variously capitalized. Its uses are manifold; to describe something as 'goth' is to confer praise or derision, notoriety or obscurity, worth or dismissal, depending on one's opinion of the matter. Goth is a term tied closely to identity and personal expression, and as such leads to debate.
Some claim that goth is defined by androgyny, black clothes, black hair dye, death, darkness, depression, heavy makeup, horror (inspired by fiction and film), Nihilism, sensuality, silver jewellery or any number of other things. Others protest that these categories are stereotypical and generally cause more harm than good.
The word goth, as it relates to the modern subculture, is a neologism laid claim to by a number of famous figures associated with the goth movement [1].
The meaning and implications of the term have naturally evolved through the years, though it seems to have been used, at the time, to describe the new 1980s post-punk bands; bands which were close to the spirit of punk, but with a more despairing, introverted form of anger.
As a subculture, goth has many variations, both stylistic and regional, which have diverged and merged over the past two decades. A large number of terms have developed to describe goth types (e.g., Perkygoth, Cybergoth, Mopeygoth, Mall Goth). In referring to goth as a whole it is easier to think of it as a movement, driven by gothic fashion and gothic rock, its members generally exhibiting some degree of taste for a dark, supernatural aesthetic.
Origins of goth The present goth subculture can be traced directly back to c. 1976 in Britain, as an off-shoot of the Punk movement with the formation of The Easy Cure (now simply The Cure) and Siouxsie and the Banshees along with other bands such as Bauhaus, Sex Gang Children, The Sisters of Mercy and Killing Joke following closely afterwards.
Independently in the United States, death rock was branching off from US punk at about the same time, with similar themes and dress. The two were sufficiently compatible to more or less merge.
Although the subculture was visible as a separate strain within punk and post-punk since the late 1970s, the term "goth" was not commonly applied to it until 1983 or 1984. Other terms mooted were positive punk (most famously as the title of a New Musical Express article from early 1983) and gothic punk (commonly heard into the late 1980s).
It is possible that goth is much more than a modern subculture, that it is an archetype of sorts that has always been a part of humanity. Fascination with all things dark and morbid is nothing new. It may be that the punk scene was a catalyst to give form to something that had only been expressed in the writings of Edgar Allan Poe and Percy Bysshe Shelley. There are many other famous artists of whom we could wonder "if they were alive today, would they have been (considered) goth?" Other subcultures have come and gone, while goth has remained. This could reflect that it is more than a zeitgeist or passing fad, but a segment of the total human population across time.
Other influences on goth As the subculture has evolved, it has taken subcultural tropes from similar and compatible subcultures, fashions and styles, though these are not directly the origins of the present subculture:
The Velvet Underground (1960s). Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath are also worth acknowledging, since despite rarely being considered core components of goth music, they were key influences in the darker trend music began to and has continued to take up to the present day. an indirect link with the beatnik movement of the 1950s. The beatniks also wore black and represented a counterculture movement. Still others that say the seeds were sown in the mid-19th century with the Gothic Revival and the morbid outlook of the Victorians (partly owing to the state of national mourning which developed in response to Prince Albert's death, and partly to the Victorians' general obsession with Christian funeral practices). Also the gothic novel, the first of which is commonly agreed to have been Horace Walpole's The Castle of Otranto (1764), or perhaps even earlier with the medieval gothic period. The goth movement has certainly been going for a long time, and shows no sign of stopping. This owes much to its evolution, and the way this evolution has played out among the various scene factions, with a solid group always remaining to hearken back to the "golden days" and resist change while others choose to explore new artistic and expressive territory. Over time, the goth movement has grown to include a bewilderingly wide array of influences from all cultures and all time periods. By reinterpreting material both ancient and modern, the goth movement remains, paradoxically, a decidedly timely one.
Goth music In the UK, the names most often mentioned would be The Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, Bauhaus, Specimen, and Alien Sex Fiend. Each of these bands had much in common with the punk movement, though any similarity with punk was owed to the fact that that was the scene from which they were emerging, and were attempting (whether consciously or unconsciously) to leave behind. What is most notable about the core early '80s post punk bands is that, typical to their punk roots, they had a general distaste for labels, presumably seeing such things as anathema to creative expression [2]. In recent years, the tendency has swung almost entirely the other way, with many bands being quick to label themselves as goth.
From the late seventies onward, the Death Rock movement in Los Angeles, California was on the rise, with such bands as Gun Club, 45 Grave, Christian Death, and Black Flag at the forefront. Nivek Ogre's Skinny Puppy (formed c. 1982) were also doing their "thing", quite apart from the Death Rock scene. Whilst all of these groups began as quite distinct from goth, they soon began to be equated with it, and are now recognised as strong early influences.
Goth was as much a European phenomenon as it was British or American. At the same time that The Cure and Christian Death were forming in those countries, in Germany (home to the largest modern gothic festival, the yearly Wave Gotik Treffen in Leipzig) were such dark bands as Xmal Deutschland, Die Krupps, and Der Mussolini. Belgium gave rise to electronic body music (EBM) with influence from bands such as Kraftwerk and Front 242. Meanwhile, Amsterdam had Clan of Xymox.
Australia also deserves a mention, the emerging movement there characterised by Nick Cave's The Birthday Party.
Throughout the '80s, there was much cross-pollination between the European goth subcultures, the Death Rock movement, and the New Romantic (New Wave) movement. The rise in popularity of rock music in the mid-eighties, was mirrored by the rise of gothic rock, most notably in the form of the seminal goth rock bands, The Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim and The Mission.
Goth music in the nineties The nineties saw the development of goth music in a more electronic-industrial direction, with bands such as Nine Inch Nails and Project Pitchfork bringing a more processed edge to the goth music style. The largely German phenomenon of Darkwave also evolved, with Das Ich at the forefront.
With the arrival of Marilyn Manson (formerly Marilyn Manson and the Spooky Kids) the goth movement has became almost mainstream in popularity and has brought the "goth-not goth" debate to a head. This is perhaps most chiefly illustrated by the Columbine High Massacre, where the goth movement was blamed as being the corrupting influence behind the killings. This claim was based on the Trench Coat Mafia's tendency to wear makeup and dark clothing.
Many balk at the claim that Mansonites are goths. Indeed to say as much is to commit heresy in many gothic circles. Spooky Kids (as fans of the band have also been dubbed) are just not goth. Others say that with many Mansonites consistently identifying themselves as goths, they speak for the movement, however much some may wish to deny them a place. Seeking a middle-ground, others have begun to accept a distinction between goth and goth-friendly, and placing Manson and his ilk in the latter category.
Another, less mainstream side of Goth music is Goth metal, which combines medieval Gothic music with heavy Doom metal. Goth metal is often described as sounding like "Beauty and the Beast" because of the characteristic duets between operatic female vocals and male death metal vocals. Some of the key bands in this area are Paradise Lost, Theatre of Tragedy, Tristania and Lacuna Coil.
Goth, as a concept, continues to evolve and develop in the 21st century, recently embracing influences from rave culture and anime. Arguably the most famous and longest running Goth club in the world is The Slimelight, currently based in a disused industrial complex in Islington, London.
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Gothic
May 2, 2004 19:39:04 GMT -5
Post by Creshosk on May 2, 2004 19:39:04 GMT -5
Well many people believe that Hotaru is Gothic. I have known a Gothic person in my days and I claim Hotaru isn't Gothic. Many people go by the sterotype that a Gothic person is all how they present themselves and how they look. That isn't true in most cases.
Reason
| Why I don't believe it. |
Gothic?
| - Dresses in Black | People in Japan dress in black | No | - Fishnet Material | I know many people who have fishnet material | No | - Knee High Black Boots | Many people wear knee high boots with outfits | No | - Strange Power | She was born with it | No | - Senshi of Death | This is based off of mythology | No | - Pale | Hotaru stays in the house a lot | No | - Black Hair | Many people have black hair | No | - Has Only 1 Friend | She is kinda shy(Some people are) | No | - Collects Lamps | It is a hobby of hers | No | - Uses witch craft | What witch craft?? | No | - Her room is dark | I am not really sure why it is | No | - Her father is a mad scientist | I have never met a mad scientist | No | - Favorite Color Purple | Millions of people like the color purple | No | - Misunderstood | Isn't everyone misunderstood once in a while? | No |
Black Clothes in Japan It helps you to look slimmer, your skin to look more pale, and make you look all around sleeker and stylin'. Also, (as it says in the manga) there must be some connection to being sickly and wearing black. Some classmates of Hotaru's commented "She's been wearing those black tights all year! Is she sick in body?" Also, Chibi-Usa asked Hotaru why she wears black alot, and Hotaru answered,"From an accident long ago, I received many wounds." After the 10th volume of Sailor Moon, Saturn is reborn and returned to a child. She's no longer sickly, and she starts to wear lighter clothes (see a pattern here?) People think she's goth because she has pale skin.... anyone who has researched Japan (or seen TONS of Japanese Sailor Moon episodes) can see that pale skin is good in Japan. (Its not like in America where people like to permit themselves to a higher chance of skin cancer by making their skin a shade that they weren't born in.) Its like in old England where it was fashionable to be as white as you could possibly be. Ladies even slept in black sheets so they could show to their husbands that they were pale, and when going out, they always wore a hat to protect their face from the sun. In Japan, its like that too... being fashionably pale. In the SM manga, Chibi-Usa commented on how Hotaru was so pretty with her pale skin. Mamoru commented that it was so pretty pale "like new fallen snow." I think maybe Hotaru is supposed to be a quiet, Japanese beauty, with her dark hair, dark eyes, pale skin, and dressy clothing. In one of the SuperS episodes, a portrait painter painted Usagi, and Usagi was a little disapointed commenting,"My eyes are much bigger than that, arn't they? And my skin is much paler too... isn't it?" People think she's goth because she collects lamps and 'practices witch craft'. Hotaru collected them because maybe Naoko wanted to have a lil pun on her name Hotaru (which means "firefly"). A buncha little glowing lamps sure did remind me of little fireflies when Hotaru showed Chibi-Usa and Usagi her room. Candles and lamps are ENVOGUE all over the world! Its big fashion trend, and it could have been a pun on the O-Bon Celebration of the dead. Since Saturn is the senshi of death and all... Okay, on to the witch craft thing... she DOESN'T practice it.
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Gothic
May 7, 2004 7:49:17 GMT -5
Post by Pinkgirl on May 7, 2004 7:49:17 GMT -5
I don't think she is a goth. Just because she only has one friend and she wears black doesn't nessesarily mean anything.
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Gothic
May 10, 2004 15:06:56 GMT -5
Post by agrose on May 10, 2004 15:06:56 GMT -5
Hutaru isn't excactly the gothic type I bet the reason for the cool black look is just because she likes the way she looks.
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Gothic
May 10, 2004 20:46:59 GMT -5
Post by Mrs. Nesbit on May 10, 2004 20:46:59 GMT -5
I totally agree with you. Just because one wears black does not mean that they are to be automatically considered gothic
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Gothic
May 15, 2004 18:31:17 GMT -5
Post by sailorjupiterfreak on May 15, 2004 18:31:17 GMT -5
I agree with you too.
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Gothic
Jun 23, 2004 10:24:12 GMT -5
Post by SailorEternalVenus on Jun 23, 2004 10:24:12 GMT -5
[glow=purple,2,300]Hotaru is[glow=red,2,300]NOT[glow=black,2,300]GOTHIC
[glow=Green,2,300]Sailor Eternal Venus
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Gothic
Jul 6, 2004 18:53:27 GMT -5
Post by chibbiscout on Jul 6, 2004 18:53:27 GMT -5
hotaru is not goth. just because she wears black is pale and wheres high boots doesnt mean youre goth
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Gothic
Aug 14, 2004 15:31:48 GMT -5
Post by Tomoe Hotaru on Aug 14, 2004 15:31:48 GMT -5
Hotaru is definitely not gothic. She dresses in black to hide her body. She is ashamed of the fact her body is not totally human, and she has many scars from an accident. I think it was the fire that killed her mother, Keiko. And although her healing power could be somewhat classified as witchcraft, it's not. It's said on a few sites (i can't back this up with a link, my apologies.) that Takeuchi-dono mixed up Saturn and Pluto's mythology or what-not..but you can't really trust them.
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Gothic
Aug 14, 2004 16:25:04 GMT -5
Post by Creshosk on Aug 14, 2004 16:25:04 GMT -5
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Gothic
Aug 15, 2004 9:50:33 GMT -5
Post by Sailor Sweet on Aug 15, 2004 9:50:33 GMT -5
[glow=yellow,2,300]Nah! -waves hand-I don't think she's gothic!Guess What?? My friend here...Umi says she's Sailor Maril!
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Gothic
Aug 28, 2004 18:07:49 GMT -5
Post by Alexa on Aug 28, 2004 18:07:49 GMT -5
NO WAY IN HELL!!!!!!
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Gothic
Oct 25, 2004 8:37:56 GMT -5
Post by Mercury on Oct 25, 2004 8:37:56 GMT -5
Sailor Saturn is far from Gothic. Blah!
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Gothic
Oct 25, 2004 19:05:54 GMT -5
Post by sailordeath on Oct 25, 2004 19:05:54 GMT -5
Creshosk, been researching this a bit? Well, that's definitly the history of modern "goth." Though in Germany (I think) there were the visagoths. The true "goth" starters. lol. Anyway, gothic is also a type of art or period when art was not the lightest. So, my question is what is goth? Maybe it's how (don't flame at me for saying this) preps and jocks and others like that veiw those you wear black or look like the sterotyped "goth." So goth could not be more than a sterotype.
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